Brian...

My club started out in 1996 on NCA (the desktop version) with version 1.02.
About a year later there was version 1.03 and about a year after that 1.04.
Each new version was a consequence of making the accounting software
complaint with tax law changes implemented by Congress. We've been using v
1.04 the longest, probable about two-three years, but now it's been made
obsolete by the tax law changes that were signed into law this year. The
full impact won't be material to the software's use for some years down the
road, which is why 1.04 is still a functional piece of software. You will
need to update the software to properly account for capital gains holding
periods at some point in the future. My experience is that the software has
gone through four versions since 1996 and that translates to a new version
every 1-2 years.

In practicality, if one expects to keep the software current with the tax
laws, my experience is that it will be upgraded every couple of years.

John Munn


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: club_cafe: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002



> Once again I would like to clarify that NCA (NAIC Club
> Accting.) software does not need upgrades every year. I was
> incorrect with this information.
> Brian

Same with Bivio....

"John R. Munn" wrote:

> Brian...
>
> It's obvious. It locks you into using their software with no recourse to
> import into a competitor's product. Once you're locked in you are subject
> to their pricing schedule with no recourse other than to manually input the
> data into the competing products.
>
> John Munn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>
>
> > Thanks Rob, my point exactly. Not to mention that if you go
> > to NOCA your data will be locked-in with them. This is the
> > thing I just can't understand. WHY CODE THE DATA ?!!

Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> Same with Bivio....


Tim, with all do respect; Rob already reply to your message
about this issue:
 >>Email support@bivio.com and we'll import it for you. It just hasn't
been cost effective to automate the process.<<

Now we still haven't heard from you about whether or not
NOCA will do this for you. Or is it that they haven't
replied to this comment yet to you (while Rob did the same
day).
Brian


 > "John R. Munn" wrote:
>
> > Brian...
> >
> > It's obvious. It locks you into using their software with no recourse to
> > import into a competitor's product. Once you're locked in you are subject
> > to their pricing schedule with no recourse other than to manually input the
> > data into the competing products.
> >
> > John Munn
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>
> >
> > > Thanks Rob, my point exactly. Not to mention that if you go
> > > to NOCA your data will be locked-in with them. This is the
> > > thing I just can't understand. WHY CODE THE DATA ?!!

Brian - I think that you are confused.

NOCA exports its info as an icd file. To import it, you go into NOCA and import it
yourself. No need to email IClub.

So they each do the same thing.

Bivio exports to XML, you email them to import it back in.

NOCA exports to icd, you go onto NOCA and import it back in.

NOCA doesn't read XML, Bivio doesn't read icd.

Just like Mac reads Mac, Windows reads Windows, Linux reads Linux.



Brian Lancaster wrote:

> Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> > Same with Bivio....
>
> Tim, with all do respect; Rob already reply to your message
> about this issue:
> >>Email support@bivio.com and we'll import it for you. It just hasn't
> been cost effective to automate the process.<<
>
> Now we still haven't heard from you about whether or not
> NOCA will do this for you. Or is it that they haven't
> replied to this comment yet to you (while Rob did the same
> day).
> Brian
>
> > "John R. Munn" wrote:
> >
> > > Brian...
> > >
> > > It's obvious. It locks you into using their software with no recourse to
> > > import into a competitor's product. Once you're locked in you are subject
> > > to their pricing schedule with no recourse other than to manually input the
> > > data into the competing products.
> > >
> > > John Munn
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>
> > >
> > > > Thanks Rob, my point exactly. Not to mention that if you go
> > > > to NOCA your data will be locked-in with them. This is the
> > > > thing I just can't understand. WHY CODE THE DATA ?!!

Tim,
 
There is a big difference however.
 
bivio's XML-based export format is designed to be open and portable. We are doing everything we can to make our product interoperable with others. It is a simple matter for a competitor to import the format.
 
NOCA's icd format is encrypted so that no competitor will ever be able to read it. If NOCA goes out of business, your data is lost - period.
 
Ion

It may be open and portable, but at this point in time only Bivio can read it.

If Bivio goes out of business...NOCA would of course support the XML.

Just like if NOCA were to go out of business Bivio would find a way to support icd.

Either way... you are locked into a format until someone comes up with a way to use it.

It is tough right now since there are only 2 accounting packages available, if a third was to come into play things would be different. The bottom line is that we as clubs have a choice, Bivio or NOCA. Either
choice locks us into that company until:

A) They go out of business.
B) A third company comes into play.
C) We decide to do things by hand or by spreadsheet.

Like I said Microsoft won't read Linux, Linux won't read Microsoft. However, now that Lindows is being created that will read both... the rules are starting to change. www.lindows.com


Ion Yadigaroglu wrote:

> Tim,
>
> There is a big difference however.
>
> bivio's XML-based export format is designed to be open and portable. We are doing everything we can to make our product interoperable with others. It is a simple matter for a competitor to import the format.
>
> NOCA's icd format is encrypted so that no competitor will ever be able to read it. If NOCA goes out of business, your data is lost - period.
>
> Ion

Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> Like I said Microsoft won't read Linux, Linux won't read
> Microsoft. However, now that Lindows is being created that will read
> both... the rules are starting to change. www.lindows.com

Actually, Linux is fully compatible with Microsoft today. Lindows is
merely a repackaging of existing Linux software. Nothing new there.
It's good marketing hype for Linux though.

Microsoft has come out very strongly against open source software and
Linux. They've got blasted by the media and, of course, the
programming community. Lindows will put more pressure on them.

Microsoft cannot sue Linux like it does other companies, because Linux
isn't a single entity. You can't sue a group of unrelated people.
Microsoft gets around this by changing its protocols and interfaces as
often as possible. This keeps the teeming millions of Linux
programmers busy, but doesn't stop them.

bivio uses Linux, Apache, mod_perl, and a bunch of other open source
software. This keeps our costs low and are systems more reliable than
if we used Microsoft software. We give back to the open source
community, too. We released the web infrastructure we used to create
bivio.com as freeware. You can download it from: Visit
http://www.bivio.net/hm/download-bOP

Cheers,
Rob

Thanks John for this information. I knew I read about it
somewhere on the board (about desktop upgrades) when I wrote
it, but couldn't find it.
Thanks Again
Brian

P.S.
Our group started back in 1999 with NCA v1.04 (after first
trying it by hand for a few months - whew don't miss those
days). Only to find out at the end of the year that we had
to buy the Tax Reporting software (Mann!!! out additional
$42). Now because of the BLACKOUT NAIC has with Bivio (not
allowing them to advertise in the BI {Better Investing}
Magazine) we didn't find out about Bivio until May of this
year -2001 (Bivio had been around for 3yrs. so you can only
imagine how bad I felt). I had a friend ask me, to check it
out and let him know what I thought about it. As we all know
a free service offered including Tax Reporting (my report-
we had signed up). So I can understand with Tim and the
other Clubs here just starting out about the charge. I'm
just not as frustrated because I knew at some point a charge
had to be made, and at $59 this isn't bad for an accaounting
service (knowing that if I kept the desktop version I would
still have to pay about $50 for the Tax Reporting program).
Now That's Funny - $50 for a tax program (a 2-3 page report
not including K-1s for partners). GOD is good, and life is
sweet!

John R. Munn wrote:
> Brian...
>
> My club started out in 1996 on NCA (the desktop version) with version 1.02.
> About a year later there was version 1.03 and about a year after that 1.04.
> Each new version was a consequence of making the accounting software
> complaint with tax law changes implemented by Congress. We've been using v
> 1.04 the longest, probable about two-three years, but now it's been made
> obsolete by the tax law changes that were signed into law this year. The
> full impact won't be material to the software's use for some years down the
> road, which is why 1.04 is still a functional piece of software. You will
> need to update the software to properly account for capital gains holding
> periods at some point in the future. My experience is that the software has
> gone through four versions since 1996 and that translates to a new version
> every 1-2 years.
>
> In practicality, if one expects to keep the software current with the tax
> laws, my experience is that it will be upgraded every couple of years.
>
> John Munn
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>
> To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 12:18 PM
> Subject: club_cafe: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002
>
>
>
> > Once again I would like to clarify that NCA (NAIC Club
> > Accting.) software does not need upgrades every year. I was
> > incorrect with this information.
> > Brian

Yes, but not quite. I agree that as long as there is no alternative
software, you're left with either bivio or ICC's products. But bivio at
least offers a hope of importing its exported data file into another
application. As long as ICC's product encrypts the data file, it's illegal
for anyone to reverse engineer it to make it readable as a data input file
into another application. Not so with bivio's product. If you export the
xml file and read it as a text file, you could can figure out the data
format to import it into other software. bivio offers hope of an alternate
vendor while ICC closes the door to that opportunity.

John Munn


----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Chatterton" <timothy_chatterton@globalcrossing.com>
To: "The Club Cafe" <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: club_cafe: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002


> Same with Bivio....
>
> "John R. Munn" wrote:
>
> > Brian...
> >
> > It's obvious. It locks you into using their software with no recourse
to
> > import into a competitor's product. Once you're locked in you are
subject
> > to their pricing schedule with no recourse other than to manually input
the
> > data into the competing products.
> >
> > John Munn
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>
> >
> > > Thanks Rob, my point exactly. Not to mention that if you go
> > > to NOCA your data will be locked-in with them. This is the
> > > thing I just can't understand. WHY CODE THE DATA ?!!
>

FYI all,
I just went to this site and the post has been pulled off.
The screen says it was probably pulled due to content
violations. I wonder what it said?
Loretta

For those of us trying to decide what to do it is very
difficult I agree, when both sides are obviously passionate
about their products. Which is a good thing. It will leave
many of us with tough decisions to make over the next two
months at our meetings.

Here is the complete story from IClubCentral from the MF
boards :
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16070058

Tim,
I can't say how, but NCA and NOCA WILL (underline and !!!)
cost more than bivio in 2002. Its coming. They haven't
finished negotiating who gets how much of the fee (NAIC,
Waterhouse... I guess) but thier numbers are all higher than
even bivio's full $59/year.
Bivio is the better deal. I'm staying here.
Loretta


Tim Kessler wrote:
> Tim
> It may make you feel better that Iclub will offer fees based on membership.
> However, having seen the posts on the fool boards, I'd be leary, especially
> since one of the posts made is on the Bivio board, and is no doubt directly
> tied to luring Bivio clubs to change to Iclub.
>
> Although you know you can get the 2001 club taxes done cheaper at Iclub (36
> vs 59), you have no idea what other charges will add up to next year, no
> matter how many members a club has.
>
> It's nice that you can export you current Bivio data and import it to NOCA.
> If, however, you find out next year that Bivio's $59 is cheaper than the
> bottom line at NOCA, Iclub will not allow you to do the same and export your
> data; it will be encrypted. That doesn't mean you still can't switch back to
> Bivio, but you will be stuck entering trasactions one at a time since your
> club's inception to get rolling once again in Bivio. As a treasure, I can
> tell you I would not want to have to do that.
>
> There are many unknowns yet in NOCA concerning costs, and, if you are lured
> to NOCA, and find out next year that your club will have to pay more than
> $59 in 2002, will it make you angry, based on the sales pitch Bryce is
> currently posting on fool boards trying to lure clubs away from Bivio? It
> would me.
>
> Tim Kessler
> sh_ic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Timothy Chatterton" <timothy_chatterton@globalcrossing.com>
> To: "The Club Cafe" <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:37 AM
> Subject: club_cafe: NAIC pricing for 2002
>
>
> > Pricing for NOCA will be a per member annual basis and there will be a
> maximum in order to keep larger clubs in check. (Thanks IClub!!! This is the
> best news yet!)
> >
> > NOCA will most likely be free until around June of next year, NOCA WILL be
> free until the end of the 2001 tax season. The tax printer as in past years
> won't be free, it will be a $36 charge, which is about a
> > 40% discount from Bivio's $59.
> >
> > *This information was taken from the Motley Fool and the Club Treasurer's
> List.*
> >
> > Also - It is UNTRUE that you need to be an NAIC member to by the NCA tax
> printer. Anyone can buy it and it is the same price for all, NAIC member or
> not. Same holds true with NOCA.
> >
> > This isn't spam this is information to help clubs make an educated
> decision as to what to do now?
> >
> > Tim Chatterton
> >
> > Brian Lancaster wrote:
> >
> > > Ok, I understand now. But isn't it funny that NAIC would
> > > charge a non-memeber the cost of being member ($40) plus $2
> > > for the same software. That's the only reason why I said you
> > > might as well become a member.
> > > Brian
> > >
> > > John R. Munn wrote:
> > > >> I was not focusing on the price of the software vis-à-vis membership
> versus not being a member, but only on the availability of the product for
> non-NAIC clubs. Thanks for pointing out the "discount" <<
> >

Loretta,
I think MF pulled Bryce' post since they were ads soliciting business for
IClub. They were very much the same in content to what is posted on this
board.

As far as receiving club cafe posts to your email box, and using your email
client's reply feature to respond to club cafe, yes, it does work.

tim kessler
sh_ic

----- Original Message -----
From: "Loretta Lombard" <lorettal@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:00 AM
Subject: club_cafe: Re: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002


> FYI all,
> I just went to this site and the post has been pulled off.
> The screen says it was probably pulled due to content
> violations. I wonder what it said?
> Loretta
>
> For those of us trying to decide what to do it is very
> difficult I agree, when both sides are obviously passionate
> about their products. Which is a good thing. It will leave
> many of us with tough decisions to make over the next two
> months at our meetings.
>
> Here is the complete story from IClubCentral from the MF
> boards :
> http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16070058
>

> As far as receiving club cafe posts to your email box, and using your email
> client's reply feature to respond to club cafe, yes, it does work.

Ooohhh! How do I do it?
Loretta


Kessler's wrote:
> Loretta,
> I think MF pulled Bryce' post since they were ads soliciting business for
> IClub. They were very much the same in content to what is posted on this
> board.
>
> As far as receiving club cafe posts to your email box, and using your email
> client's reply feature to respond to club cafe, yes, it does work.
>
> tim kessler
> sh_ic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Loretta Lombard" <lorettal@bivio.com>
> To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:00 AM
> Subject: club_cafe: Re: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002
>
>
> > FYI all,
> > I just went to this site and the post has been pulled off.
> > The screen says it was probably pulled due to content
> > violations. I wonder what it said?
> > Loretta
> >
> > For those of us trying to decide what to do it is very
> > difficult I agree, when both sides are obviously passionate
> > about their products. Which is a good thing. It will leave
> > many of us with tough decisions to make over the next two
> > months at our meetings.
> >
> > Here is the complete story from IClubCentral from the MF
> > boards :
> > http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16070058
> >

Well, although I get the club cafe posts via email (club_cafe@bivio.com), I
can't find where I made that happen. Somewhere in the club or personal login
administration section, possibly your personal profile's email link in "my
site" administration, but someone else or a bivio rep will have to answer
this one.

tim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Loretta Lombard" <lorettal@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:14 AM
Subject: club_cafe: Re: Re: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002


> > As far as receiving club cafe posts to your email box, and using your
email
> > client's reply feature to respond to club cafe, yes, it does work.
>
> Ooohhh! How do I do it?
> Loretta
>
>
> Kessler's wrote:
> > Loretta,
> > I think MF pulled Bryce' post since they were ads soliciting business
for
> > IClub. They were very much the same in content to what is posted on this
> > board.
> >
> > As far as receiving club cafe posts to your email box, and using your
email
> > client's reply feature to respond to club cafe, yes, it does work.
> >
> > tim kessler
> > sh_ic
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Loretta Lombard" <lorettal@bivio.com>
> > To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:00 AM
> > Subject: club_cafe: Re: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002
> >
> >
> > > FYI all,
> > > I just went to this site and the post has been pulled off.
> > > The screen says it was probably pulled due to content
> > > violations. I wonder what it said?
> > > Loretta
> > >
> > > For those of us trying to decide what to do it is very
> > > difficult I agree, when both sides are obviously passionate
> > > about their products. Which is a good thing. It will leave
> > > many of us with tough decisions to make over the next two
> > > months at our meetings.
> > >
> > > Here is the complete story from IClubCentral from the MF
> > > boards :
> > > http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16070058
> > >
>

I would also like to know how to receive Club Cafe posts
automatically sent to me.
Please help. Thanx
Ilze

Kessler's wrote:
> Well, although I get the club cafe posts via email (club_cafe@bivio.com), I
> can't find where I made that happen. Somewhere in the club or personal login
> administration section, possibly your personal profile's email link in "my
> site" administration, but someone else or a bivio rep will have to answer
> this one.
>
> tim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Loretta Lombard" <lorettal@bivio.com>
> To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:14 AM
> Subject: club_cafe: Re: Re: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002
>
>
> > > As far as receiving club cafe posts to your email box, and using your
> email
> > > client's reply feature to respond to club cafe, yes, it does work.
> >
> > Ooohhh! How do I do it?
> > Loretta
> >
> >
> > Kessler's wrote:
> > > Loretta,
> > > I think MF pulled Bryce' post since they were ads soliciting business
> for
> > > IClub. They were very much the same in content to what is posted on this
> > > board.
> > >
> > > As far as receiving club cafe posts to your email box, and using your
> email
> > > client's reply feature to respond to club cafe, yes, it does work.
> > >
> > > tim kessler
> > > sh_ic
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Loretta Lombard" <lorettal@bivio.com>
> > > To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:00 AM
> > > Subject: club_cafe: Re: Re: NAIC pricing for 2002
> > >
> > >
> > > > FYI all,
> > > > I just went to this site and the post has been pulled off.
> > > > The screen says it was probably pulled due to content
> > > > violations. I wonder what it said?
> > > > Loretta
> > > >
> > > > For those of us trying to decide what to do it is very
> > > > difficult I agree, when both sides are obviously passionate
> > > > about their products. Which is a good thing. It will leave
> > > > many of us with tough decisions to make over the next two
> > > > months at our meetings.
> > > >
> > > > Here is the complete story from IClubCentral from the MF
> > > > boards :
> > > > http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16070058
> > > >
> >