Hey, here's an idea. Let's get everyone to sign-up for this great FREE service. We'll tell everyone it's FREE so they will choose us over our competitors who are asking people up front to pay for their services. They will tell all their friends about this great FREE service. We'll get lots of FREE PR because we're a FREE service. Then, get this, once everyone has integrated their books with our software, we'll send out an e-mail telling them they now have to pay for it. It's an age old marketing trick and it'll be great! Of course, we will continue to sell advertising on our site and re-sell our member lists. So, what do you think?

I completely agree with you....... I think that it is
really a bad deal that they are charging for the basic
service. I input everything and it just seems like once we
are dependent on them they make us pay or leave. Well, I
hope that someone else starts a website to compete and that
bivio loses a lot of members. A really bad trick to pull!!!

  Brett

John Moore wrote:
> Hey, here's an idea. Let's get everyone to sign-up for this great FREE service. We'll tell everyone it's FREE so they will choose us over our competitors who are asking people up front to pay for their services. They will tell all their friends about this great FREE service. We'll get lots of FREE PR because we're a FREE service. Then, get this, once everyone has integrated their books with our software, we'll send out an e-mail telling them they now have to pay for it. It's an age old marketing trick and it'll be great! Of course, we will continue to sell advertising on our site and re-sell our member lists. So, what do you think?

>So, what do you think?
 
I think that you greatly miss the point. The entire history of the last several years is littered with the remains of "dot-com" companies who discovered that they can't make money by giving a product away for free. The good folks at bivio have managed to hang on longer than most.
 
I give them credit for trying, and I give them credit for taking a new approach. They provide a good product, and they provide competition in an area where competition is needed.
 
The competing web accounting software has been advertised for some time now as "free for a limited time." And, the competing desktop club accounting software has never been free.
 
So ... give bivio a break! They're a business, they need to stay in business to provide their service. You're better of with them in business than not.

I'd have to agree with Joseph. This is a great service that
is worth the cost that bivio will now charge. Surprising
that it has been free for as long as it has.

Our club signed up for accountsync, and it, too, works
great.
Our cost, with the new fee structure, is actually going to
be $10 less than it was when we signed up.

Joseph Craig wrote:
> >So, what do you think?
>
> I think that you greatly miss the point. The entire history of the last several years is littered with the remains of "dot-com" companies who discovered that they can't make money by giving a product away for free. The good folks at bivio have managed to hang on longer than most.
>
> I give them credit for trying, and I give them credit for taking a new approach. They provide a good product, and they provide competition in an area where competition is needed.
>
> The competing web accounting software has been advertised for some time now as "free for a limited time." And, the competing desktop club accounting software has never been free.
>
> So ... give bivio a break! They're a business, they need to stay in business to provide their service. You're better of with them in business than not.

Is $5 a month all that bad?

It sucks if you are a club of 5 people but it is ok for bigger clubs of like 20. That works out to be what .25 a person per month?! Not that big a deal. You can't even play an arcade game for .25 anymore.

Personally I would prefer a per person fee, that way the smaller clubs don't get the short end of the stick. Why not make it .50 per person per month? Wouldn't that be better?

Think about what you get for $59 a year? The software AND the tax software, Bivio still isn't a bad deal.

It costs money after all to pay programmers to improve their service. And for bandwidth and servers.

There is no such thing as a "free lunch".

Tim

Joseph Craig wrote:

> >So, what do you think?
>
> I think that you greatly miss the point. The entire history of the last several years is littered with the remains of "dot-com" companies who discovered that they can't make money by giving a product away for free. The good folks at bivio have managed to hang on longer than most.
>
> I give them credit for trying, and I give them credit for taking a new approach. They provide a good product, and they provide competition in an area where competition is needed.
>
> The competing web accounting software has been advertised for some time now as "free for a limited time." And, the competing desktop club accounting software has never been free.
>
> So ... give bivio a break! They're a business, they need to stay in business to provide their service. You're better of with them in business than not.

I couldn't agree with you more. The whole reason our club
signed up for BIVIO is that we are a small club that
couldn't afford the NAIC software. Now that we are dependant
on this "free" service it will end up costing us more than
if we had just bought the software in the first place. If a
company is going to advertise itself as a free service, it
should remain just that.



John Moore wrote:
> Hey, here's an idea. Let's get everyone to sign-up for this great FREE service. We'll tell everyone it's FREE so they will choose us over our competitors who are asking people up front to pay for their services. They will tell all their friends about this great FREE service. We'll get lots of FREE PR because we're a FREE service. Then, get this, once everyone has integrated their books with our software, we'll send out an e-mail telling them they now have to pay for it. It's an age old marketing trick and it'll be great! Of course, we will continue to sell advertising on our site and re-sell our member lists. So, what do you think?

Troy Turnley wrote:
> I couldn't agree with you more. The whole reason our club
> signed up for BIVIO is that we are a small club that
> couldn't afford the NAIC software. Now that we are dependant
> on this "free" service it will end up costing us more than
> if we had just bought the software in the first place. If a
> company is going to advertise itself as a free service, it
> should remain just that.
>
>
>
I too agree. I feel angry and betrayed. Our club is small,
struggling and unfortunately has never posted a profit. We
began initially with the NAIC software but switched over a
year ago because we couldn't afford the expense of keeping
up the high cost of the support and tax software. Now we're
left hanging out to dry...knew it was too good to be true.
$59 this year - how much next year, I wonder? Thanks Bivio
- keep up the good work.
Rita Watkins

at least it is a 'deductible expense'?


Rita Watkins wrote:
> Troy Turnley wrote:
> > I couldn't agree with you more. The whole reason our club
> > signed up for BIVIO is that we are a small club that
> > couldn't afford the NAIC software. Now that we are dependant
> > on this "free" service it will end up costing us more than
> > if we had just bought the software in the first place. If a
> > company is going to advertise itself as a free service, it
> > should remain just that.
> >
> >
> >
> I too agree. I feel angry and betrayed. Our club is small,
> struggling and unfortunately has never posted a profit. We
> began initially with the NAIC software but switched over a
> year ago because we couldn't afford the expense of keeping
> up the high cost of the support and tax software. Now we're
> left hanging out to dry...knew it was too good to be true.
> $59 this year - how much next year, I wonder? Thanks Bivio
> - keep up the good work.
> Rita Watkins

We appreciate your feedback. We spent a considerable amount
of time and soul searching in making this decision. Thanks
to those who understand that the reasons for our fee change.

The bivio Bucks program is real and will save you money.
Let's say Ms. Watkins' club decided to refer Mr. Turnley's
club. Mr. Turnley's club would receive $20. In addition,
both clubs would receive 30 bivio Bucks for an upgrade to
AccountSync. To learn more, please visit:

http://www.bivio.com/hm/bucks.html

We hope you to retain you all as customers. We provide the
best club accounting available on or off the Web.
AccountSync is the only broker to club books link. Our
customer support is responsive and you reach the experts on
the first call. Call us toll free ot +1 866-248-7571 to
find out.

Thank you for using bivio,
Rob Nagler
CTO
bivio Inc.

I too agree with Tim & Joe,
Bivio offers a great product for the the price. You have to
understand that NAIC's software is $100 not including tax
software which went for $42 last year and who knows what it
will be this year (tech. support is a long distance charge).
True, NAIC's Online version is free for the time been, but
we all know that will change because they have never given
anything away for free long; and you STILL have to buy the
tax software (I checked on that before coming here).
It's true, this will hurt alot of small club (inwhich I too
am a member of), but luckly we are in our planning stage for
next years buget; so we just have to add it in and work it
with the bivio bucks (wondering how long that will last
-LOL).
But this is still the best thing out there and Bivio is
still offering a better prodoct for a better price. And if
you are waiting for something better for free, in this day
and time, you will truly have a long wait.

Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> Is $5 a month all that bad?
>
> It sucks if you are a club of 5 people but it is ok for bigger clubs of like 20. That works out to be what .25 a person per month?! Not that big a deal. You can't even play an arcade game for .25 anymore.
>
> Personally I would prefer a per person fee, that way the smaller clubs don't get the short end of the stick. Why not make it .50 per person per month? Wouldn't that be better?
>
> Think about what you get for $59 a year? The software AND the tax software, Bivio still isn't a bad deal.
>
> It costs money after all to pay programmers to improve their service. And for bandwidth and servers.
>
> There is no such thing as a "free lunch".
>
> Tim
>
> Joseph Craig wrote:
>
> > >So, what do you think?
> >
> > I think that you greatly miss the point. The entire history of the last several years is littered with the remains of "dot-com" companies who discovered that they can't make money by giving a product away for free. The good folks at bivio have managed to hang on longer than most.
> >
> > I give them credit for trying, and I give them credit for taking a new approach. They provide a good product, and they provide competition in an area where competition is needed.
> >
> > The competing web accounting software has been advertised for some time now as "free for a limited time." And, the competing desktop club accounting software has never been free.
> >
> > So ... give bivio a break! They're a business, they need to stay in business to provide their service. You're better of with them in business than not.

What really stinks about this is the fact that you are
starting it on 1/1/2002. TAX TIME! Sure you did it so the
small clubs would be FORCED into signing up so they can get
the tax stuff done. Bivio started it as a FREE service and
we should get that included for the year 2001 with out
paying for it.

Putting the tax back into the 3 months of free service would
be the honest thing to do.

We will have to take a long look at the Bivio Service to see
if we can TRUST the people behind it in the future before
paying for the service in 2002.

It really is a low thing to do

Jerry Runels

Robert Nagler wrote:
> We appreciate your feedback. We spent a considerable amount
> of time and soul searching in making this decision. Thanks
> to those who understand that the reasons for our fee change.
>
> The bivio Bucks program is real and will save you money.
> Let's say Ms. Watkins' club decided to refer Mr. Turnley's
> club. Mr. Turnley's club would receive $20. In addition,
> both clubs would receive 30 bivio Bucks for an upgrade to
> AccountSync. To learn more, please visit:
>
> http://www.bivio.com/hm/bucks.html
>
> We hope you to retain you all as customers. We provide the
> best club accounting available on or off the Web.
> AccountSync is the only broker to club books link. Our
> customer support is responsive and you reach the experts on
> the first call. Call us toll free ot +1 866-248-7571 to
> find out.
>
> Thank you for using bivio,
> Rob Nagler
> CTO
> bivio Inc.

I don't mind the "fee based service" quite as much as I do the amount they are going to charge. I agree bivio offers some nice and useful tools, however, I think they could have started they "fee's" at a lesser level. The fee's will be about the same as what the NAIC is charging (if not just a little more). I think the "shock effect" of the amount being charged is part of the problems that bivio will run into, mainly with new clubs.
 
Jimie
 
John Moore wrote:
> Hey, here's an idea. Let's get everyone to sign-up for this great FREE service. We'll tell everyone it's FREE so they will choose us over our competitors who are asking people up front to pay for their services. They will tell all their friends about this great FREE service. We'll get lots of FREE PR because we're a FREE service. Then, get this, once everyone has integrated their books with our software, we'll send out an e-mail telling them they now have to pay for it. It's an age old marketing trick and it'll be great! Of course, we will continue to sell advertising on our site and re-sell our member lists. So, what do you think?

Jimie L. Phares wrote:
> The fee's will be about the same as what the NAIC is charging
> (if not just a little more).

Jimie, with all due respect, our fees are significantly
lower than what the NAIC charges. The NAIC Club
Accounting program is $211.95 + shipping. The tax package
is usually $40 + shipping per year. Customer support is
$49.95 per year plus the call is on your nickel (it's not
toll-free).

In contrast, bivio provides toll-free customer support
included in our fee. Our accounting product is superior in
both quality and features. We also use the highest quality
data available on the Internet to value your portfolio
automatically.

We have tried to soften the blow by providing a steep
discount. You get AccountSync (unavailable from the NAIC)
for free this year, if you can use it. If you can't use it,
you get a $30 discount on next year's subscription. Each
club you refer earns you a $20 discount.

The NAIC offers no discounts or referral programs. Don't
forget that the NAIC uses volunteer labor to compete with
us. When you take an NAIC course on their club accounting
program, the instructor is not paid. The money you pay goes
directly into the NAIC's coffers. The NAIC management
refuses to allow bivio to advertize in their magazine or
allow their chapters to offer courses on bivio.

There is one last important fact. If you upgrade to their
2.0 accounting product (for $99 not including taxes), you
will be locked in forever. While bivio offers you an open
export format which the NAIC could import if it chose to,
the NAIC's new accounting format is encrypted. Your data is
out of your reach and that's just not right. If you decide
to leave bivio, you can take your data with you and our
competitors can read it.

bivio really did change the landscape of club accounting in
1998. We have introduced competition in a space where none
existed before. Despite the significant obstacles the NAIC
has laid in our path, we have survived and thrived over
these last three years.

Rob Nagler
CTO
bivio Inc.

<< Jimie, with all due respect, our fees are significantly
lower than what the NAIC charges. The NAIC Club
Accounting program is $211.95 + shipping. The tax package
is usually $40 + shipping per year. >>

Rob,

With all due respect to your sovereignty in this forum, if
you'd like to publicly compare our products on pricing or
features, which by the way we're happy to do, I kindly
request that you please not go apples & oranges. It is true
that the desktop version of NAIC Club Acct'g is, as you say,
more expensive than bivio's new fees. (As you know, the
added cost of the desktop is from manufacturing and shipping
costs that web products--ours and yours--simply don't
incur.) On the other hand, our online club accounting
product (http://naic.iclub.com) remains entirely free of
charge for the indefinite future. Some sort of reasonable
fee may apply at some point, but not for the moment and not
without substantial notice to all our customers.

<< The NAIC offers no discounts or referral programs. >>

The NAIC offers reduced prices to all of its members, with
special software discounts to members of its Computer Group.
The price you quoted was thus high by about $42 for NAIC
members and $47 for CG members.

I hope you don't mind these clarifying comments.

Regards,
Bryce

------------
ICLUBcentral Inc.
www.iclub.com

"Robert Nagler" wrote....

>...The NAIC Club Accounting program is $211.95 +
>shipping. The tax package is usually $40 + shipping
>per year. Customer support is $49.95 per year plus
>the call is on your nickel (it's not toll-free).
>.......
>
>We have tried to soften the blow by providing a steep
>discount. .
>
> The NAIC offers no discounts....

This simply isn't so Rob. There are significant discounts offered for NAIC
members and even larger discounts afforded NAIC Computer Group members. See
http://www.better-investing.org/computer/nca.html

>Don't forget that the NAIC uses volunteer labor to compete with
>us. When you take an NAIC course on their club accounting
>program, the instructor is not paid.

Where would one find any club accounting course, paid instructor or not, offered
by bivio?

Jerry