Ok, I understand now. But isn't it funny that NAIC would
charge a non-memeber the cost of being member ($40) plus $2
for the same software. That's the only reason why I said you
might as well become a member.
Brian

John R. Munn wrote:
>> I was not focusing on the price of the software vis-à-vis membership versus not being a member, but only on the availability of the product for non-NAIC clubs. Thanks for pointing out the "discount" <<

Pricing for NOCA will be a per member annual basis and there will be a maximum in order to keep larger clubs in check. (Thanks IClub!!! This is the best news yet!)

NOCA will most likely be free until around June of next year, NOCA WILL be free until the end of the 2001 tax season. The tax printer as in past years won't be free, it will be a $36 charge, which is about a
40% discount from Bivio's $59.

*This information was taken from the Motley Fool and the Club Treasurer's List.*

Also - It is UNTRUE that you need to be an NAIC member to by the NCA tax printer. Anyone can buy it and it is the same price for all, NAIC member or not. Same holds true with NOCA.

This isn't spam this is information to help clubs make an educated decision as to what to do now?

Tim Chatterton

Brian Lancaster wrote:

> Ok, I understand now. But isn't it funny that NAIC would
> charge a non-memeber the cost of being member ($40) plus $2
> for the same software. That's the only reason why I said you
> might as well become a member.
> Brian
>
> John R. Munn wrote:
> >> I was not focusing on the price of the software vis-à-vis membership versus not being a member, but only on the availability of the product for non-NAIC clubs. Thanks for pointing out the "discount" <<

While I appreciate your desire to inform clubs, the cost of using NOCA
for 2002 is still unknown. Posting partial information is a trick to
lure people away from bivio. Read the fine print.

bivio's pricing is 100% clear. It will cost you $44/year for your
first two years if your club existed on bivio prior to 11/05/01 and
you sign up before 1/1/02. After that, the cost will be $59/year for
the forseeable future. You can reduce your cost by referring other
clubs. This is a real discount, not some promise to consider it.
Clubs have already taken advantage of our bivio Bucks program.

Our competitors have said "the online tax reports at NOCA will cost
$36 per club...At some point next year, we'll probably start charging
a reasonable subscription fee for full access to NOCA". What is this
cost and why is it so hard to figure it out? bivio's cost is $59/year
including taxes and a free three month trial to all new clubs. You
know the cost. You know the quality of our service. bivio is the
better choice at this stage.

At bivio we have always strived to be open and honest with our
customers. This board is a testament to that. We took the bold step
of instituting subscription pricing. It took our competitors by
surprise. They reacted. We acted. Which company would you rather do
business with?

bivio is #1 AND we try harder.

Cheers,
Rob Nagler
CTO
bivio Inc.

Thanks Rob, my point exactly. Not to mention that if you go
to NOCA your data will be locked-in with them. This is the
thing I just can't understand. WHY CODE THE DATA ?!!


Rob Nagler wrote:
> While I appreciate your desire to inform clubs, the cost of using NOCA
> for 2002 is still unknown. Posting partial information is a trick to
> lure people away from bivio. Read the fine print.
>
> bivio's pricing is 100% clear. It will cost you $44/year for your
> first two years if your club existed on bivio prior to 11/05/01 and
> you sign up before 1/1/02. After that, the cost will be $59/year for
> the forseeable future. You can reduce your cost by referring other
> clubs. This is a real discount, not some promise to consider it.
> Clubs have already taken advantage of our bivio Bucks program.
>
> Our competitors have said "the online tax reports at NOCA will cost
> $36 per club...At some point next year, we'll probably start charging
> a reasonable subscription fee for full access to NOCA". What is this
> cost and why is it so hard to figure it out? bivio's cost is $59/year
> including taxes and a free three month trial to all new clubs. You
> know the cost. You know the quality of our service. bivio is the
> better choice at this stage.
>
> At bivio we have always strived to be open and honest with our
> customers. This board is a testament to that. We took the bold step
> of instituting subscription pricing. It took our competitors by
> surprise. They reacted. We acted. Which company would you rather do
> business with?
>
> bivio is #1 AND we try harder.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob Nagler
> CTO
> bivio Inc.

> Brian- My data is locked in with Bivio as well.... what do I do with an XML
> file???

We hear you. You can expect more compatibility in the coming weeks.

We are committed to your freedom of choice, because we know it is a
value you cherish. XML is one of those formats. Proprietary,
encrypted formats coupled with the threat of lawsuits are neither
about freedom nor choice.

> Rob - this is the first that I have heard about the $44/year for the first
> two years. 100% clear??? Plus if I click on the link to subscribe, it asks
> for $59, and I KNOW that we started WAY before 11/05/01.

You will earn 30 bivio Bucks once you subscribe for 2002. This is
good for a $30 discount on next year's service, which means $29 for
2003 and $59 for 2002, or $44/year for the first two years. This was
clearly stated in our initial announcement.

Cheers,
Rob

Tim
It may make you feel better that Iclub will offer fees based on membership.
However, having seen the posts on the fool boards, I'd be leary, especially
since one of the posts made is on the Bivio board, and is no doubt directly
tied to luring Bivio clubs to change to Iclub.

Although you know you can get the 2001 club taxes done cheaper at Iclub (36
vs 59), you have no idea what other charges will add up to next year, no
matter how many members a club has.

It's nice that you can export you current Bivio data and import it to NOCA.
If, however, you find out next year that Bivio's $59 is cheaper than the
bottom line at NOCA, Iclub will not allow you to do the same and export your
data; it will be encrypted. That doesn't mean you still can't switch back to
Bivio, but you will be stuck entering trasactions one at a time since your
club's inception to get rolling once again in Bivio. As a treasure, I can
tell you I would not want to have to do that.

There are many unknowns yet in NOCA concerning costs, and, if you are lured
to NOCA, and find out next year that your club will have to pay more than
$59 in 2002, will it make you angry, based on the sales pitch Bryce is
currently posting on fool boards trying to lure clubs away from Bivio? It
would me.

Tim Kessler
sh_ic

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Chatterton" <timothy_chatterton@globalcrossing.com>
To: "The Club Cafe" <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:37 AM
Subject: club_cafe: NAIC pricing for 2002


> Pricing for NOCA will be a per member annual basis and there will be a
maximum in order to keep larger clubs in check. (Thanks IClub!!! This is the
best news yet!)
>
> NOCA will most likely be free until around June of next year, NOCA WILL be
free until the end of the 2001 tax season. The tax printer as in past years
won't be free, it will be a $36 charge, which is about a
> 40% discount from Bivio's $59.
>
> *This information was taken from the Motley Fool and the Club Treasurer's
List.*
>
> Also - It is UNTRUE that you need to be an NAIC member to by the NCA tax
printer. Anyone can buy it and it is the same price for all, NAIC member or
not. Same holds true with NOCA.
>
> This isn't spam this is information to help clubs make an educated
decision as to what to do now?
>
> Tim Chatterton
>
> Brian Lancaster wrote:
>
> > Ok, I understand now. But isn't it funny that NAIC would
> > charge a non-memeber the cost of being member ($40) plus $2
> > for the same software. That's the only reason why I said you
> > might as well become a member.
> > Brian
> >
> > John R. Munn wrote:
> > >> I was not focusing on the price of the software vis-à-vis membership
versus not being a member, but only on the availability of the product for
non-NAIC clubs. Thanks for pointing out the "discount" <<
>

> It's nice that you can export you current Bivio data and import it to NOCA.

You can?? Since when?

>
> If, however, you find out next year that Bivio's $59 is cheaper than the
> bottom line at NOCA, Iclub will not allow you to do the same and export your
> data; it will be encrypted.

Yes, but I will still have the desktop software. See above, my Bivio data may as
well be encrypted, XML is virtually useless. One other thing that I find VERY
interesting is that if I export my bivio information to XML, can I import it
back into Bivio? Because lets say for arguement sake that I make the switch to
NOCA for $36. Then in 2003 when all pricing has shaken out Bivio becomes the
clear choice, I should be able to import my XML file and then have one year's
worth of data to enter manually. But wait, I can't even import the XML back into
Bivio!! What the...

> That doesn't mean you still can't switch back to
> Bivio, but you will be stuck entering trasactions one at a time since your
> club's inception to get rolling once again in Bivio. As a treasure, I can
> tell you I would not want to have to do that.

And if I stick with Bivio, and they raise their pricing in 2003 then I would be
in the same boat trying to go to NOCA or NCA, or the next player in Club
accounting. At least at that point I can resort back to desktop software and
forget about a yearly fee, and do taxes by hand.

> There are many unknowns yet in NOCA concerning costs, and, if you are lured
> to NOCA, and find out next year that your club will have to pay more than
> $59 in 2002, will it make you angry, based on the sales pitch Bryce is
> currently posting on fool boards trying to lure clubs away from Bivio? It
> would me.

Currently I am not angry at all. I am disappointed but not angry. I knew that
neither program would be free forever. Kinda like Buy and Hold imposing
inactivity fees... and now Sharebuilder raising their fees. I know that it costs
money, but clubs need to weigh the pros and cons of both programs. And so far
the facts needed to do so are unclear. Bivio I don't think has made a promise
that fees will still be $59 in 2003? They haven't addressed the XML issue
either. NOCA hasn't given a concrete fee structure for the NOCA service.
Bottom Line: 2002 - Pay $59 to do 2001 taxes or pay $36 to do 2001 taxes.
                    2003 - Pay at least $29 to do 2002 taxes or pay at least $36
to do 2002 taxes....

Tough choice.

Back to the talk about tricks and luring, why do you think you get $30 in Bivio
bucks that you can't use until next year!? Hmmmmm to cover any cost increase
needed?

Tim Chatterton
Treasurer
AEC Investment Club

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Timothy Chatterton" <timothy_chatterton@globalcrossing.com>
> To: "The Club Cafe" <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:37 AM
> Subject: club_cafe: NAIC pricing for 2002
>
> > Pricing for NOCA will be a per member annual basis and there will be a
> maximum in order to keep larger clubs in check. (Thanks IClub!!! This is the
> best news yet!)
> >
> > NOCA will most likely be free until around June of next year, NOCA WILL be
> free until the end of the 2001 tax season. The tax printer as in past years
> won't be free, it will be a $36 charge, which is about a
> > 40% discount from Bivio's $59.
> >
> > *This information was taken from the Motley Fool and the Club Treasurer's
> List.*
> >
> > Also - It is UNTRUE that you need to be an NAIC member to by the NCA tax
> printer. Anyone can buy it and it is the same price for all, NAIC member or
> not. Same holds true with NOCA.
> >
> > This isn't spam this is information to help clubs make an educated
> decision as to what to do now?
> >
> > Tim Chatterton
> >
> > Brian Lancaster wrote:
> >
> > > Ok, I understand now. But isn't it funny that NAIC would
> > > charge a non-memeber the cost of being member ($40) plus $2
> > > for the same software. That's the only reason why I said you
> > > might as well become a member.
> > > Brian
> > >
> > > John R. Munn wrote:
> > > >> I was not focusing on the price of the software vis-à-vis membership
> versus not being a member, but only on the availability of the product for
> non-NAIC clubs. Thanks for pointing out the "discount" <<
> >

You've obviously researched this xml import/export feature
more than I have. Possibility both Bivio and IClub reps need
to give us answers to this.

Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> > It's nice that you can export you current Bivio data and import it to NOCA.
>
> You can?? Since when?
>
> >
> > If, however, you find out next year that Bivio's $59 is cheaper than the
> > bottom line at NOCA, Iclub will not allow you to do the same and export your
> > data; it will be encrypted.
>
> Yes, but I will still have the desktop software. See above, my Bivio data may as
> well be encrypted, XML is virtually useless. One other thing that I find VERY
> interesting is that if I export my bivio information to XML, can I import it
> back into Bivio? Because lets say for arguement sake that I make the switch to
> NOCA for $36. Then in 2003 when all pricing has shaken out Bivio becomes the
> clear choice, I should be able to import my XML file and then have one year's
> worth of data to enter manually. But wait, I can't even import the XML back into
> Bivio!! What the...
>
> > That doesn't mean you still can't switch back to
> > Bivio, but you will be stuck entering trasactions one at a time since your
> > club's inception to get rolling once again in Bivio. As a treasure, I can
> > tell you I would not want to have to do that.
>
> And if I stick with Bivio, and they raise their pricing in 2003 then I would be
> in the same boat trying to go to NOCA or NCA, or the next player in Club
> accounting. At least at that point I can resort back to desktop software and
> forget about a yearly fee, and do taxes by hand.
>
> > There are many unknowns yet in NOCA concerning costs, and, if you are lured
> > to NOCA, and find out next year that your club will have to pay more than
> > $59 in 2002, will it make you angry, based on the sales pitch Bryce is
> > currently posting on fool boards trying to lure clubs away from Bivio? It
> > would me.
>
> Currently I am not angry at all. I am disappointed but not angry. I knew that
> neither program would be free forever. Kinda like Buy and Hold imposing
> inactivity fees... and now Sharebuilder raising their fees. I know that it costs
> money, but clubs need to weigh the pros and cons of both programs. And so far
> the facts needed to do so are unclear. Bivio I don't think has made a promise
> that fees will still be $59 in 2003? They haven't addressed the XML issue
> either. NOCA hasn't given a concrete fee structure for the NOCA service.
> Bottom Line: 2002 - Pay $59 to do 2001 taxes or pay $36 to do 2001 taxes.
> 2003 - Pay at least $29 to do 2002 taxes or pay at least $36
> to do 2002 taxes....
>
> Tough choice.
>
> Back to the talk about tricks and luring, why do you think you get $30 in Bivio
> bucks that you can't use until next year!? Hmmmmm to cover any cost increase
> needed?
>
> Tim Chatterton
> Treasurer
> AEC Investment Club
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Timothy Chatterton" <timothy_chatterton@globalcrossing.com>
> > To: "The Club Cafe" <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:37 AM
> > Subject: club_cafe: NAIC pricing for 2002
> >
> > > Pricing for NOCA will be a per member annual basis and there will be a
> > maximum in order to keep larger clubs in check. (Thanks IClub!!! This is the
> > best news yet!)
> > >
> > > NOCA will most likely be free until around June of next year, NOCA WILL be
> > free until the end of the 2001 tax season. The tax printer as in past years
> > won't be free, it will be a $36 charge, which is about a
> > > 40% discount from Bivio's $59.
> > >
> > > *This information was taken from the Motley Fool and the Club Treasurer's
> > List.*
> > >
> > > Also - It is UNTRUE that you need to be an NAIC member to by the NCA tax
> > printer. Anyone can buy it and it is the same price for all, NAIC member or
> > not. Same holds true with NOCA.
> > >
> > > This isn't spam this is information to help clubs make an educated
> > decision as to what to do now?
> > >
> > > Tim Chatterton
> > >
> > > Brian Lancaster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ok, I understand now. But isn't it funny that NAIC would
> > > > charge a non-memeber the cost of being member ($40) plus $2
> > > > for the same software. That's the only reason why I said you
> > > > might as well become a member.
> > > > Brian
> > > >
> > > > John R. Munn wrote:
> > > > >> I was not focusing on the price of the software vis-à-vis membership
> > versus not being a member, but only on the availability of the product for
> > non-NAIC clubs. Thanks for pointing out the "discount" <<
> > >

> interesting is that if I export my bivio information to XML, can I import it
> back into Bivio?

Email support@bivio.com and we'll import it for you. It just hasn't
been cost effective to automate the process.

> Back to the talk about tricks and luring, why do you think you get
> $30 in Bivio bucks that you can't use until next year!?

Most of our users can spend their bivio Bucks today on a free
AccountSync upgrade.

As a result of the increased demand for AccountSync, we have shifted
priorities and will be adding more AccountSync brokers in the coming
weeks.

Rob

Timothy Chatterton wrote:
>>Kinda like Buy and Hold imposing inactivity fees... and now Sharebuilder raising their fees.<<

Is this true about Sharebuilder raising there rates? When
did this happen? Didn't they have an adjustment back June
this year, which made it lower? Sorry about all the
questions, but that was the firm I was thinking about going
to if we ever left BuyandHold.
Thanks

Tim,
Since Rob has answered the question concerning importing xml
to Bivio, it would seem appropriate to ask the Iclub people
if they would import it to NOCA. Since they are trying hard
to lure clubs from Bivio, I would think they would import
xml data if they get you to sign up with them. Bivio does
not prevent you or Iclub from doing this, legally or
otherwise.

You will not have anything to export from Iclub that can be
imported to a competitor's site, as Rob has previously
pointed out (unless Iclub is changing those policies).

Maybe if you're a new club, manually reentering trasactions
is not that big a deal for you, but I can't imagine how much
work it would be for me to reenter the transactions I've
entered into Bivio for the past two years (and which now are
entered through AccountSync), if I'd originally entered the
data into NOCA and would now be faced with our club choosing
to transfer to Bivio.

As you pointed out, you can just use the desktop NAIC
software. Our club chose not to spend the money on the
software when we were new, as I did the accounting manually
until finding Bivio, and in the future we will not likely
pay for the software, plus annual upgrades and tax packages
when we can get the job done by Bivio for $89 (with
AccountSync).

If Bivio's competition provides an equal or better product
for less money, we will certainly consider it in the
future. For us, that just has not yet happened.

Rob Nagler wrote:
> > interesting is that if I export my bivio information to XML, can I import it
> > back into Bivio?
>
> Email support@bivio.com and we'll import it for you. It just hasn't
> been cost effective to automate the process.
>
> > Back to the talk about tricks and luring, why do you think you get
> > $30 in Bivio bucks that you can't use until next year!?
>
> Most of our users can spend their bivio Bucks today on a free
> AccountSync upgrade.
>
> As a result of the increased demand for AccountSync, we have shifted
> priorities and will be adding more AccountSync brokers in the coming
> weeks.
>
> Rob

Sharebuilder's recent price changes included $12/month for
unlimited transactions, $4 for one time trades (which I
believe are made once a week), and $15.95/trade for real
time trades.

Brian Lancaster wrote:
> Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> >>Kinda like Buy and Hold imposing inactivity fees... and now Sharebuilder raising their fees.<<
>
> Is this true about Sharebuilder raising there rates? When
> did this happen? Didn't they have an adjustment back June
> this year, which made it lower? Sorry about all the
> questions, but that was the firm I was thinking about going
> to if we ever left BuyandHold.
> Thanks

Tim K. Kessler wrote:
>>Our club chose not to spend the money on the
> software when we were new, as I did the accounting manually
> until finding Bivio, and in the future we will not likely
> pay for the software, plus annual upgrades and tax packages
> when we can get the job done by Bivio for $89 (with
> AccountSync).<<

Once again I would like to clarify that NCA (NAIC Club
Accting.) software does not need upgrades every year. I was
incorrect with this information.
Brian

Brian...

It's obvious. It locks you into using their software with no recourse to
import into a competitor's product. Once you're locked in you are subject
to their pricing schedule with no recourse other than to manually input the
data into the competing products.

John Munn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>



> Thanks Rob, my point exactly. Not to mention that if you go
> to NOCA your data will be locked-in with them. This is the
> thing I just can't understand. WHY CODE THE DATA ?!!