"Tim K. Kessler" <tkessler@bivio.com> wrote....

>I was a bit disappointed to see Rip and Jerry leave Bivio,
>but I'd expect, with them now working for NAIC, that the
>online site will improve, maybe even someday be as good as
>Bivio's.

First, thanks for the kind words. Secondly, let me clear up one point. Rip
and I now work for IClubCentral, not NAIC itself. IClubCentral purchased
Easyware Software, the original supplier of the NAIC Club Accounting software to
NAIC, and is now in the process of developing new and greatly improved products
for NAIC and investment clubs. Finally, if I didn't believe that IClubCentral
was on the right path towards making absolutely the best club accounting and
club management software available anywhere, I wouldn't have gone to work for
them.

Jerry Dressel

Tim....

If I looked at the ways I've incidentally thrown away money, I think your
bivio fees pale in comparison. Consider that a club with five people is
spending about $1/month for accounting management and tax report generation
services through bivio. Consider the difficulties of doing it by hand and
the potential financial risks for messing up the tax reporting (IRS fines &
penalties).

Consider that the cost at most private colleges is running about $20-30K per
year. Consider the opportunity cost for failing to get an education, or the
cost of delaying it for years.

Gladly pay bivio's (or I-Club's) fees and forgo a Sunday newspaper once
every two months (they run about $2 in NY). The fee is really small on a
per person basis and while it's a recurring fee, consider it to be the cost
of doing business. Education sometimes can not best be measured in terms of
dollars but in terms of the growth, breadth and wisdom it enables.

John Munn
Cross Country Investment Club


----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Chatterton"

> ....cut...However, it is tough to educate the discouraged.
> And how much should that education cost?
>
> Brian Lancaster wrote:
>

> Consider that the cost at most private colleges is running about $20-30K per
> year. Consider the opportunity cost for failing to get an education, or the
> cost of delaying it for years.

No kidding... try being in the position of paying off those loans for the next
10 years!! My beef wasn't with the actual cost of the product or with the fact
that it now does cost. My problem is that it is the little clubs, and the
startups that get wacked. If you don't cater to the smaller start up clubs then
you have no future. Why should a group of 25 pay the same for accounting
services as a group of 5?? Does a business pay a company like Paychex to do
their accounting the same amount if they have 100 employees or 10000 employees?
I think not.

With all of the other startup costs, it is very difficult to stick with NAIC
principles, Motley Fool principles and to still have the club survive. I think
that if startup costs are too high it will discourage a lot of clubs from even
starting. $1 a month adds up. A penny saved is a penny earned.

> Gladly pay bivio's (or I-Club's) fees and forgo a Sunday newspaper once
> every two months (they run about $2 in NY). The fee is really small on a
> per person basis and while it's a recurring fee, consider it to be the cost
> of doing business. Education sometimes can not best be measured in terms of
> dollars but in terms of the growth, breadth and wisdom it enables.

I already forgo the Sunday paper, I rarely go out to eat. I have 5 months left
on my car payment. I have 10 years to pay off $35K in college debt. I have
totally cut costs in my life to be able to even start a club and to invest on my
own. I have no problems with the sacrafices that I have made. I don't even have
cable TV! I just don't see where a general per club fee is fair. It should be
per person, smaller clubs should not pay as much as larger ones.

Tim

Once again Tim makes some great points here. It would be
great if SOMEONE would care about the small group and there
start-up cost. I just don't know if that needs to be BIVIO
(even though a sliding scale here would have been great, but
to be fair, they're offering the Bivio Bucks Progrogram to
help defer cost for next year).
The Corporation I believe that should be held responsible in
considering the small group is NAIC. Understand that most
Clubs get started threw there educational programs, but they
don't care about the small groups and their start-up cost. I
believe thats because they understand there should be a cost
in starting a business. I just don't believe it should be
that much with them.
Bivio has only been around for about 3yrs. and just starting
to charge. While NAIC is looking at 50yrs and has ALWAYS
charged (while never considering the small group)! Here's
what I'm talking about:
 $40 signup for club
 $14 per/parner
 $170 for accounting program desktop not including shipping
 $42-50 for tax report program (price unknown for this year)

Now I could be wrong here, but I believe to get the software
you had to be a member, so that would make it $252 - 260
(40+170+(42 or 50)). Now someone else states, NAIC or
Easyware (which is now I-Club Central) who makes the Club
Accounting Program would have a new upgrade release every
year for about $99, while still charging every year for the
Tax Reporting Program $42-50.

So here comes Bivio, with an accounting service which
includes tax reporting for $59 to offer competition, and
give Bivio Bucks to try and off-set the cost for the little
guy (I don't know this sounds good to me - LOL). The
Challenge now goes to NAIC and I-Club to keep their site
free, and open up the format so that we can all make chioces
if they charge (to help the little guy). Because while the
I-Club is ONLY working with the NAIC's program, this makes
them apart NAIC (no playing with words here).

Brian

Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> > Consider that the cost at most private colleges is running about $20-30K per
> > year. Consider the opportunity cost for failing to get an education, or the
> > cost of delaying it for years.
>
> No kidding... try being in the position of paying off those loans for the next
> 10 years!! My beef wasn't with the actual cost of the product or with the fact
> that it now does cost. My problem is that it is the little clubs, and the
> startups that get wacked. If you don't cater to the smaller start up clubs then
> you have no future. Why should a group of 25 pay the same for accounting
> services as a group of 5?? Does a business pay a company like Paychex to do
> their accounting the same amount if they have 100 employees or 10000 employees?
> I think not.
>
> With all of the other startup costs, it is very difficult to stick with NAIC
> principles, Motley Fool principles and to still have the club survive. I think
> that if startup costs are too high it will discourage a lot of clubs from even
> starting. $1 a month adds up. A penny saved is a penny earned.
>
> > Gladly pay bivio's (or I-Club's) fees and forgo a Sunday newspaper once
> > every two months (they run about $2 in NY). The fee is really small on a
> > per person basis and while it's a recurring fee, consider it to be the cost
> > of doing business. Education sometimes can not best be measured in terms of
> > dollars but in terms of the growth, breadth and wisdom it enables.
>
> I already forgo the Sunday paper, I rarely go out to eat. I have 5 months left
> on my car payment. I have 10 years to pay off $35K in college debt. I have
> totally cut costs in my life to be able to even start a club and to invest on my
> own. I have no problems with the sacrafices that I have made. I don't even have
> cable TV! I just don't see where a general per club fee is fair. It should be
> per person, smaller clubs should not pay as much as larger ones.
>
> Tim

For those that think Bivio and NOCA are evenly priced
remember (as it stands right now) if you go with NOCA you
will need to get the year-end tax reporting software and be
a member of NAIC total about $83-90 (and thats every year if
it stays free).

Brian Lancaster wrote:
 >>While NAIC is looking at 50yrs and has ALWAYS
charged (while never considering the small group)! Here's
what I'm talking about:
  $40 signup for club
  $14 per/parner
  $170 for accounting program desktop not including shipping
  $42-50 for tax report program (price unknown for this
  year)

Now I could be wrong here, but I believe to get the software
you had to be a member, so that would make it $252 - 260
(40+170+(42 or 50)). Now someone else states, NAIC or
Easyware (which is now I-Club Central) who makes the Club
Accounting Program would have a new upgrade release every
year for about $99, while still charging every year for the
Tax Reporting Program $42-50.<<

Brian Lancaster wrote:
> For those that think Bivio and NOCA are evenly priced
> remember (as it stands right now) if you go with NOCA you
> will need to get the year-end tax reporting software and be
> a member of NAIC total about $83-90 (and thats every year if
> it stays free).
>
> Brian Lancaster wrote:
> >>While NAIC is looking at 50yrs and has ALWAYS
> charged (while never considering the small group)! Here's
> what I'm talking about:
> $40 signup for club
> $14 per/parner
> $170 for accounting program desktop not including shipping
> $42-50 for tax report program (price unknown for this
> year)
>
> Now I could be wrong here, but I believe to get the software
> you had to be a member, so that would make it $252 - 260
> (40+170+(42 or 50)). Now someone else states, NAIC or
> Easyware (which is now I-Club Central) who makes the Club
> Accounting Program would have a new upgrade release every
> year for about $99, while still charging every year for the
> Tax Reporting Program $42-50.<<

I just got off the phone with a Rep. from NAIC. They
confirmed that you had to be a member to buy the software at
prices given here, but this software isn't upgraded every
year. She didn't know how much tech. support would be after
the first yrs. purchase of the program but stated there is
a charge.

Sorry for the earlier mislead on info.

Brian Lancaster wrote:
> For those that think Bivio and NOCA are evenly priced
> remember (as it stands right now) if you go with NOCA you
> will need to get the year-end tax reporting software and be
> a member of NAIC total about $83-90 (and thats every year if
> it stays free).
>
> Brian Lancaster wrote:
> >>While NAIC is looking at 50yrs and has ALWAYS
> charged (while never considering the small group)! Here's
> what I'm talking about:
> $40 signup for club
> $14 per/parner
> $170 for accounting program desktop not including shipping
> $42-50 for tax report program (price unknown for this
> year)
>
> Now I could be wrong here, but I believe to get the software
> you had to be a member, so that would make it $252 - 260
> (40+170+(42 or 50)). Now someone else states, NAIC or
> Easyware (which is now I-Club Central) who makes the Club
> Accounting Program would have a new upgrade release every
> year for about $99, while still charging every year for the
> Tax Reporting Program $42-50.<<

Hey Tim...

I guess my comments hit closer to home than I thought they would. While
your argument has merit that the fee could be based on a per person basis,
the actual cost of providing the service is not related to the number of
individuals. It's not related to the number of clubs either, but probably
most directly to providing service to partnerships and payroll to keep the
software and system up and running.

There are fixed and variable expenses for bivio and I expect the variable
expenses have only a small relationship to the number of clubs or the number
of partners. The variable cost will be related to providing support to
partnerships and to the size of the database that needs to be managed.

Perhaps another approach would be for Rob to take bivio public with
ownership limited to the partnerships serviced by bivio? Hmmm... a bivio
cooperative?

Good luck with your expenses... you have my admiration for the frugal
lifestyle and sacrifices you're taking. For what it's worth, we didn't have
cable until about three years ago... a choice so we'd get Road Runner to
free up the telephone line.

John Munn


----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Chatterton" <timothy_chatterton@globalcrossing.com>
To: "The Club Cafe" <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: club_cafe: Re: Re: Upcoming bivio changes (contin.)


> > Consider that the cost at most private colleges is running about $20-30K
per
> > year. Consider the opportunity cost for failing to get an education, or
the
> > cost of delaying it for years.
>
> No kidding... try being in the position of paying off those loans for the
next
> 10 years!! My beef wasn't with the actual cost of the product or with the
fact
> that it now does cost. My problem is that it is the little clubs, and the
> startups that get wacked. If you don't cater to the smaller start up clubs
then
> you have no future. Why should a group of 25 pay the same for accounting
> services as a group of 5?? Does a business pay a company like Paychex to
do
> their accounting the same amount if they have 100 employees or 10000
employees?
> I think not.
>
> With all of the other startup costs, it is very difficult to stick with
NAIC
> principles, Motley Fool principles and to still have the club survive. I
think
> that if startup costs are too high it will discourage a lot of clubs from
even
> starting. $1 a month adds up. A penny saved is a penny earned.
>
> > Gladly pay bivio's (or I-Club's) fees and forgo a Sunday newspaper once
> > every two months (they run about $2 in NY). The fee is really small on
a
> > per person basis and while it's a recurring fee, consider it to be the
cost
> > of doing business. Education sometimes can not best be measured in
terms of
> > dollars but in terms of the growth, breadth and wisdom it enables.
>
> I already forgo the Sunday paper, I rarely go out to eat. I have 5 months
left
> on my car payment. I have 10 years to pay off $35K in college debt. I have
> totally cut costs in my life to be able to even start a club and to invest
on my
> own. I have no problems with the sacrafices that I have made. I don't even
have
> cable TV! I just don't see where a general per club fee is fair. It should
be
> per person, smaller clubs should not pay as much as larger ones.
>
> Tim
>
>

Brian...

Neither the partner nor the club need to be a member of NAIC to purchase the
desktop version of Club Accounting. I don't know about using I-Club
Central's on line product though. You can get a discount on the initial
purchase if you are a member though... not sure about the upgrade.

Figure the annual cost for the desktop version to be about $50-100
(necessary to accommodate tax law changes) and the annual tax software at an
additional cost of $40-50.

The prices can be found on I-Club Central's web site. When looked at in
that context, bivio is a $59 annual fee that includes the tax software while
I-Club's product will run an estimated $40-150/year depending on current
estimated and approximate prices for current products and assuming no cost
for their on line accounting software. Of course, at the present time
you're locked into their product with no turning back once you elect to use
them and are then at their mercy for ever.

John Munn



----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 12:15 PM
Subject: club_cafe: Follow-up


> For those that think Bivio and NOCA are evenly priced
> remember (as it stands right now) if you go with NOCA you
> will need to get the year-end tax reporting software and be
> a member of NAIC total about $83-90 (and thats every year if
> it stays free).

John,
 
Thanks for your post, which mirrors my own view of our business. There are significant fixed costs to run bivio. Variable costs are in large part for customer support.
 
We really enjoy hearing from young clubs. New clubs are, however, the most costly to service (on average). A new club is still learning how to run a club and how to use bivio. So costs alone don't justify a lower price for new clubs.
 
We also had to think about what different clubs can afford. Older clubs usually manage larger portfolios, and can therefore afford somewhat higher costs.
 
In the end, we decided that the single $59 fee is simple, and a reasonable balance. The bivio Bucks creates some flexibility around that, as clubs can save money with some effort.
 
Sincerely,
Ion Yadigaroglu
CEO
bivio Inc.

With these new charge, can we expect some graphics?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ion Yadigaroglu" <ion@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 6:33 PM
Subject: club_cafe: Re: Re: Re: Upcoming bivio changes (contin.)


> John,
>
> Thanks for your post, which mirrors my own view of our business. There
are significant fixed costs to run bivio. Variable costs are in large part
for customer support.
>
> We really enjoy hearing from young clubs. New clubs are, however, the
most costly to service (on average). A new club is still learning how to
run a club and how to use bivio. So costs alone don't justify a lower price
for new clubs.
>
> We also had to think about what different clubs can afford. Older clubs
usually manage larger portfolios, and can therefore afford somewhat higher
costs.
>
> In the end, we decided that the single $59 fee is simple, and a reasonable
balance. The bivio Bucks creates some flexibility around that, as clubs can
save money with some effort.
>
> Sincerely,
> Ion Yadigaroglu
> CEO
> bivio Inc.
>

John,
As I stated before, I call NAIC and spoke with a rep. in
charge of software sales. She told me that there a member
and non-member pricing on there Club Accounting Program
(desktop). For non-members its $212 (you do the math) that's
170 + 42. Ok, it only cost $40 to join NAIC and save $2.
Again this comes from there sales rep. on software.

John R. Munn wrote:
>>Brian...
Neither the partner nor the club need to be a member of NAIC
to purchase the desktop version of Club Accounting. I don't
know about using I-Club Central's on line product though.<<

Brian...

I was not focusing on the price of the software vis-à-vis membership versus
not being a member, but only on the availability of the product for non-NAIC
clubs. Thanks for pointing out the "discount" <VBG>.

From my perspective (treasurer of two clubs... one with 8 partners and
another with 15, both use NCA's desktop v. 1.04. One of the clubs also uses
bivio), I would not be a treasurer without a professionally written software
product. The chances of making a mistake are too great and the errors can
be difficult to correct, especially if they occur over multiple tax years.
I think each partner owes it to themselves and to their treasurer to
minimize the potential errors through use of the readily available and
relatively inexpensive software.

I was involved as an advisor to one club whose accounting was done on a
spreadsheet. The spreadsheet model had problems and no one else was willing
to accept the treasurer's position when he wanted out. If you're not up on
the tax law changes or don't have accounting expertise, I think you need to
spend the bucks to insure the accounting is done right. In the long run,
the money is well spent.

John



----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lancaster" <biglan@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 9:03 PM
Subject: club_cafe: Re: Follow-up


> John,
> As I stated before, I call NAIC and spoke with a rep. in
> charge of software sales. She told me that there a member
> and non-member pricing on there Club Accounting Program
> (desktop). For non-members its $212 (you do the math) that's
> 170 + 42. Ok, it only cost $40 to join NAIC and save $2.
> Again this comes from there sales rep. on software.
>

I'd have to agree with John. I'd built a spread sheet for
our new club when it began to do club business by unit
valuation (using the NAIC book for help). After many months
I was getting extremely tired of entering numbers and trying
to make sure I was not making errors. It also became obvious
that I was going to be permanent treasure, mistakes and all,
since noone else would take over what was becoming a bit of
a mess of numbers and valuations.

Then we found the Bivio site, which made life much easier,
and I soon dumped the spreadsheet. Then to insure that other
members could take a turn at treasure and become more
familiar with their club's accounting, we signed up for a
Bivio premium service, AccountSync. It's great, can't
imagine going back to the way we started.


John R. Munn wrote:

> From my perspective (treasurer of two clubs... one with 8 partners and
> another with 15, both use NCA's desktop v. 1.04. One of the clubs also uses
> bivio), I would not be a treasurer without a professionally written software
> product. The chances of making a mistake are too great and the errors can
> be difficult to correct, especially if they occur over multiple tax years.
> I think each partner owes it to themselves and to their treasurer to
> minimize the potential errors through use of the readily available and
> relatively inexpensive software.
>
> I was involved as an advisor to one club whose accounting was done on a
> spreadsheet. The spreadsheet model had problems and no one else was willing
> to accept the treasurer's position when he wanted out. If you're not up on
> the tax law changes or don't have accounting expertise, I think you need to
> spend the bucks to insure the accounting is done right. In the long run,
> the money is well spent.
>
> John

> With these new charge, can we expect some graphics?

Possibly. We're working on some fun new features. Watch out for
them!

Rob