Jerry Dressel writes:
> This simply isn't so Rob. There are significant discounts offered
> for NAIC members and even larger discounts afforded NAIC Computer
> Group members.

You have to pay the NAIC to join and *then* you get a discount. A
club must pay the NAIC $40 plus $14 per member (one member required)
per year to qualify for the discount. That's $54 before you get any
software. The membership "discount" is $42 ($211.95 - $169.95). It
costs a club MORE if they join the NAIC to buy the software.

The tax package, upgrades, and support are fixed price for members and
non-members, so there's no additional discounts offered by the
subscription.

> Where would one find any club accounting course, paid instructor or
> not, offered by bivio?

That's a very good point. As you know, there are two ways to deal
with software problems. Fix them or teach them. bivio fixes problems
as soon as they appear, usually within the same week. We don't need
courses to teach our users how to work around bugs and usability
problems.

The NAIC approach is to give courses, not to fix their software. They
have failed to address some major flaws in NCA (manual auditing,
year-end distributions, non-deductible expenses, and on and on).
Their courses are littered with "gotchas" about NCA.

Courses are a powerful marketing tool. The NAIC uses this VERY
effectively to sell software. The first thing in the "starting and
investment club course" is "buy NAIC Club Accounting". It's a great
marketing pitch coming from a volunteer working for a "non-profit".
Who wouldn't believe it?

bivio is easy to use. Thousands of clubs use it without going to
courses. We lose the marketing power that courses provide. That's
fine with me. I like writing software that doesn't require courses.

Rob Nagler
CTO
bivio Inc.

Rob...

I'm sorry to see your announcement today; but I expected the free service
would end soon. I regret the hard feelings this change brings and hope the
bivio community can graciously accept your management decision. To the
bivio community, I would like to take this opportunity to let you know that
met Rob Nagler in July at Compufest where I quizzed him on bivio's business
model and its ability to remain a free service. Rob was sincere with his
reply that bivio would remain a free service as long as it possibly could.
His analogy was the magazine publication industry and television where
advertizing revenues generated the funds necessary to keep the service free.
I wasn't completely persuaded... hey I'm from New York and there's no such
thing as a free lunch... but I felt that Rob was sincere, and had the drive
to make bivio's free service business model a success if it was possible.
Consequently, my club's set up its accounting on bivio on a trial basis
while simultaneously using NAIC's Club Accounting v. 1.04.

bivio, by instituting a fee based subscription service is no forcing us to
choose, and quite frankly, I don't know which direction my partners will
choose. Our choices are to go to either NAIC's software or move to bivio.
I didn't expect bivio to remain a free service and now that bivio's gone to
a subscription based model, I expect their competitor (who continues to
provide a free web based product) will do the same once sufficient users are
using their accounting software.

The NAIC desktop approach is a $99 upgrade for us, but that does not include
long term software support, nor does it include the end of year tax
reporting software, which run about $40-50 each. So for about $150, we get
NAIC's desktop version and the tax software. In addition, we become locked
permanently into using NAIC software because the software's data structure
is not transferable to any other vendor's platform. Given NAIC's history of
software maintenance and quality, that would paint a grim picture were it
not for recent changes in the ownership of the software by I-Club Central.
It would not be fair to point out the negatives withoug pointing out the
positives. The folks from I-Club Central are young and have the depth to
ensure for the product's continued development and support, ICC has hired
on Rip West and Jerry Dressel (both formerly with bivio) and these two
gentlemen are the most respected and knowlegeable partnership/club
accounting experts I know. I think that the NAIC software will be a product
that will only improve for the better.

Should you purchase the desktop software, keep in mind that the software may
need to be replaced with changes in tax laws. Since 1996, I've used three
different versions of the software, and I should be on my fourth (if we
hadn't been procrastinating with a software decision). That's a rate of
almost a version a year. If you don't buy support, you'd be purchasing a
new version at the upgrade price. The current upgrade is about $99, and so
you should at least figure a cost of $50-100/year for desktop software.

NAIC/ICC also offers a free (currently) web based accounting approach
similar to bivio, but the annual tax reporting will cost you. If history is
a guide, expect the tax reporting software to cost about $40-50, annually.

By offering tax reporting, bivio still offers a low cost alternative even
with the $59/year subscription fee. It's more expensive than the NAIC web
based software/tax reporting, but as an annual cost, it is about half to a
third of the cost of using the NAIC desktop software.

So please... everyone... realize that bivio gave you a great deal and that
it still offers a competitive deal and a good product. There was never any
promise that bivio would remain free, and if you're comparing bivio's cost
to its competitor, it's about equal. For a club with 10 people, either
vendor's on line software will cost about $5-6/person/year. This is a
bargain for software that allows you to keep track of your club's finances
at any time and manages to produce your club's tax forms and reports for
each partner. Count your blessings you're not paying by the hour for
bookeeping and tax reporting to be done by an accountant.

John Munn

Bryce Klempner of ICLUBcentral writes:
> With all due respect to your sovereignty in this forum,

Bryce, you are pushing the limits, but since I don't believe in
censorship. I'll leave your post up. All of bivio's messages ARE
censored on your (NAIC) message boards.

> request that you please not go apples & oranges.

Let's go apples and apples then. Here's a message which is in the
censor's queue at the NAIC.

Bryce Klempner of ICLUBcentral writes:
> NOCA's tax features are more intrinsically part of the program and may
> or not may not be considered separately in pricing decisions.

I just logged into NOCA 2. BTW, you guys have done a great job
copying our site. :-) I just wish you copied our club export format
instead of encrypting your customers data without their permission.

Anyway, I looked all over your site for the "Taxes" button. I
couldn't find it. Will NOCA taxes be implemented for the 2001 tax
season?

> I can tell you categorically that there are no plans to charge for
> NOCA this year.

bivio isn't charging in 2001 either. Instead of playing language
games, here are two simple questions:

* Is all of NOCA going to be free for all of 2002?

* Will NOCA taxes be free for the 2001 tax season?

bivio users know the answer to all of the above questions now.

> I hope you don't mind these clarifying comments.

I don't. Please clarify.

Cheers,
Rob Nagler
CTO
bivio Inc.

HEY!!! You GO Rob!!!



Rob Nagler wrote:
> Bryce Klempner of ICLUBcentral writes:
> > With all due respect to your sovereignty in this forum,
>
> Bryce, you are pushing the limits, but since I don't believe in
> censorship. I'll leave your post up. All of bivio's messages ARE
> censored on your (NAIC) message boards.
>
> > request that you please not go apples & oranges.
>
> Let's go apples and apples then. Here's a message which is in the
> censor's queue at the NAIC.
>
> Bryce Klempner of ICLUBcentral writes:
> > NOCA's tax features are more intrinsically part of the program and may
> > or not may not be considered separately in pricing decisions.
>
> I just logged into NOCA 2. BTW, you guys have done a great job
> copying our site. :-) I just wish you copied our club export format
> instead of encrypting your customers data without their permission.
>
> Anyway, I looked all over your site for the "Taxes" button. I
> couldn't find it. Will NOCA taxes be implemented for the 2001 tax
> season?
>
> > I can tell you categorically that there are no plans to charge for
> > NOCA this year.
>
> bivio isn't charging in 2001 either. Instead of playing language
> games, here are two simple questions:
>
> * Is all of NOCA going to be free for all of 2002?
>
> * Will NOCA taxes be free for the 2001 tax season?
>
> bivio users know the answer to all of the above questions now.
>
> > I hope you don't mind these clarifying comments.
>
> I don't. Please clarify.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob Nagler
> CTO
> bivio Inc.

WAY TO GO ROB!!!
You tell him! I can't believer that guy will come over here
to try to talk up that product, while we can't talk about
BIVIO over there.

Rob Nagler wrote:
> Bryce Klempner of ICLUBcentral writes:
> > With all due respect to your sovereignty in this forum,
>
> Bryce, you are pushing the limits, but since I don't believe in
> censorship. I'll leave your post up. All of bivio's messages ARE
> censored on your (NAIC) message boards.
>
> > request that you please not go apples & oranges.
>
> Let's go apples and apples then. Here's a message which is in the
> censor's queue at the NAIC.
>
> Bryce Klempner of ICLUBcentral writes:
> > NOCA's tax features are more intrinsically part of the program and may
> > or not may not be considered separately in pricing decisions.
>
> I just logged into NOCA 2. BTW, you guys have done a great job
> copying our site. :-) I just wish you copied our club export format
> instead of encrypting your customers data without their permission.
>
> Anyway, I looked all over your site for the "Taxes" button. I
> couldn't find it. Will NOCA taxes be implemented for the 2001 tax
> season?
>
> > I can tell you categorically that there are no plans to charge for
> > NOCA this year.
>
> bivio isn't charging in 2001 either. Instead of playing language
> games, here are two simple questions:
>
> * Is all of NOCA going to be free for all of 2002?
>
> * Will NOCA taxes be free for the 2001 tax season?
>
> bivio users know the answer to all of the above questions now.
>
> > I hope you don't mind these clarifying comments.
>
> I don't. Please clarify.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob Nagler
> CTO
> bivio Inc.

Wow...

This is starting to get ugly. I always like to see grown men get into a
pissing match.


> I just logged into NOCA 2. BTW, you guys have done a great job
> copying our site. :-) I just wish you copied our club export format
> instead of encrypting your customers data without their permission.

I just did the same. I must say that the sites are QUITE different. The
first thing I see when I get on Bivio is the page that lists all the "quick
links" to the different reports and such. First thing on NOCA is a summary
page listing the current valuation, member status, club message board, and
the voting area. Each site does have "tabs" at the top to navigate, but
doesn't everyone.

Let's not start the "Mom he's copying me..." routine.

> bivio isn't charging in 2001 either. Instead of playing language
> games, here are two simple questions:
>
> * Is all of NOCA going to be free for all of 2002?
>
> * Will NOCA taxes be free for the 2001 tax season?
>
> bivio users know the answer to all of the above questions now.

Yes but to make it fair, did Bivio users know the answers to those questions
in November of 2000?? No, we didn't. But you are right we do now.

I will repeat it again, if a club is just starting with say 5 people the
start-up costs are VERY high. They need to evaluate joining NAIC, going with
Bivio or going with NOCA or what have you. They need to choose a broker and
everything. For the small start up club here is an example:

NAIC - $40 + $14*5
Bivio - $59
Broker - $144 for commissions
Bank - $2 a month for a bank check

Break this out per person per month - $5.62 per person per month. So out of
my $30 minimum payment I get $24.38 put directly into the club. Which leaves
the club with $121.90 per month to invest. OUCH!!

For a 20 person club it is $1.41 per person a month, or $28.59 to invest or
$571.80 to invest per month.

Something needs to give... otherwise starting clubs become discouraged
quickly.

My club started in May of 2000 with 13 people. We are down to 9, and we have
a total return of -6% on our stocks alone. Including all startup costs my
current valuation is at -24.58%. How discouraging is that. Try to keep 8
people in a club when they are losing 25% and we preached that we could
double our money in 5 years... we got some work to do.

Bottom Line: The small clubs are the ones that get hurt. And the starting
clubs or young clubs get hurt even more. So stop spending time fighting over
things. Rob - you are on peoples payroll now, you have customers that are
paying, I wouldn't get into pissing matches on discussion boards...it looks
bad.

Tim

<<
I was a bit disappointed to see Rip and Jerry leave Bivio, but I'd
expect, with them now working for NAIC, that the online site will
improve, maybe even someday be as good as Bivio's.But I wouldn't expect
to get it for free. I know both (Rip and Jerry) don't like NAIC's
encryption, nor did they like the NAIC's censorship practices concerning
Bivio, and I would certainly like to see them weigh in here.
>>

Well, I will weigh in with a few thoughts. First of all, I am utterly
amazed at the reaction of some users objecting to a subscription fee by
bivio. For over two years, bivio has furnished free accounting, free tax
prepartation, free advice on taxes, accounting and investment clubs. Now
they find they must charge a fee to continue. Gimme a break. How can
anyone feel betrayed?

Secondly, there is seems to be a lot of confusion about who the parties
are. Bryce tried to clear it up, but I will try again. IClub [with whom
I am now associated] and NAIC are two very separate entities. Easyware's
software for club accounting was the only package approved by NAIC.
IClub bought out Easyware, and now is the only approved accounting
software by NAIC. I'm not getting into the rights or wrongs of that, but
would point out that Iclub has no power to censor anyone's emails, nor
have they done so.

<<
Possibly they've been censored also, although it is understandable if
you're being paid by a company you can hardly critisize their practices
online. Hopefully they will bring about change in the NAIC.
>>

As I said before, Iclub can not and does not censor. Naic is another
story, and I have a lot of thoughts about that. But that's a different
story. I think the issue here is that you have options in selecting
accounting software. Probably all options will cost some money, but
considering the costs of other software packages, and what you get, I
fail to see that as a big problem. bivio has a fine product. Iclub is
rapidly catching up, and offers the abilty to exchange between a desktop
product and online. Jerry and I will be working as hard as we can to
keep improving it.

Peace,

Rip West
www.iclub.com --- rip@iclub.com

> censorship. I'll leave your post up. All of bivio's messages ARE
> censored on your (NAIC) message boards.

ICLUBcentral has nothing to do with NAIC's boards, where the
postings of many commercial players, ourselves included, may
be censored.

> Anyway, I looked all over your site for the "Taxes" button. I
> couldn't find it. Will NOCA taxes be implemented for the 2001 tax
> season?

Yes, absolutely. The IRS, as you know, hasn't released 2001
tax forms yet, but will do so starting today and over the
next week....

> * Is all of NOCA going to be free for all of 2002?

As I've been saying for over half a year, I don't know yet.
There may be a fee at some point, but how much of the site
it applies to, who it applies to, how much it is, and when
it'll be introduced are all up in the air.

> * Will NOCA taxes be free for the 2001 tax season?

Unclear, and depends what you mean by free. The short
answer is probably not, just as they've never been entirely
free in the past.

Bryce

----------
ICLUBcentral Inc.
www.iclub.com

I think Rob has every right to both defend and compare
bivio's online services to the NAIC's software and online
services, especially considering that a NAIC rep is giving
his (their) own spin here on the bivio site while censoring
Bivio, not only on the NAIC site, but at every turn since
Bivio began. Rob's comparison more than gives clubs a
comparison of the two, although, until Bryce (NAIC) answers
the questions posed concerning whether the NAIC's online
accounting tax forms will be given for free to club's for
2001 taxes, we're still left in the dark concerning NAIC,
and clubs that switch may be faced with charges from NAIC to
get their tax forms.

Bryce has stated that NAIC will give more than ample notice
to clubs concerning any charges they will make in the future
for online accounting. Since it's November and obviously
clubs are considering leaving Bivio for NAIC's currently
free accounting site, what will the NAIC charge for the 2001
tax forms, or will they be free, for club's using NAIC's
site? Time to fess up, Bryce, telling us in December or
later that there will be a charge is hardly ample time for
2001 taxes.

I can understand new clubs' frustration with the upcoming
charge at Bivio, and think it would be nice if Bivio offered
free taxes for 2001, since club's that began just month's
ago were expecting the service to be free.

As for Bivio's site, it's super, and I wouldn't consider the
NAIC software or site. We gladly pay Bivio for AccountSync,
and hope they are around to provide this service long term.
As a treasure, there is still a method for doing it free,
that being doing it manually, using no software or online
accounting site. Having done it that way, there is no way I
ever want to go back to it, and, if our club did not want to
pay for services, they would be in need of a new treasure to
do the accounting manually.

I was a bit disappointed to see Rip and Jerry leave Bivio,
but I'd expect, with them now working for NAIC, that the
online site will improve, maybe even someday be as good as
Bivio's.But I wouldn't expect to get it for free.
I know both (Rip and Jerry) don't like NAIC's encryption,
nor did they like the NAIC's censorship practices concerning
Bivio, and I would certainly like to see them weigh in here.
Possibly they've been censored also, although it is
understandable if you're being paid by a company you can
hardly critisize their practices online. Hopefully they will
bring about change in the NAIC.


Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> Wow...
>
> This is starting to get ugly. I always like to see grown men get into a
> pissing match.
>
>
> > I just logged into NOCA 2. BTW, you guys have done a great job
> > copying our site. :-) I just wish you copied our club export format
> > instead of encrypting your customers data without their permission.
>
> I just did the same. I must say that the sites are QUITE different. The
> first thing I see when I get on Bivio is the page that lists all the "quick
> links" to the different reports and such. First thing on NOCA is a summary
> page listing the current valuation, member status, club message board, and
> the voting area. Each site does have "tabs" at the top to navigate, but
> doesn't everyone.
>
> Let's not start the "Mom he's copying me..." routine.
>
> > bivio isn't charging in 2001 either. Instead of playing language
> > games, here are two simple questions:
> >
> > * Is all of NOCA going to be free for all of 2002?
> >
> > * Will NOCA taxes be free for the 2001 tax season?
> >
> > bivio users know the answer to all of the above questions now.
>
> Yes but to make it fair, did Bivio users know the answers to those questions
> in November of 2000?? No, we didn't. But you are right we do now.
>
> I will repeat it again, if a club is just starting with say 5 people the
> start-up costs are VERY high. They need to evaluate joining NAIC, going with
> Bivio or going with NOCA or what have you. They need to choose a broker and
> everything. For the small start up club here is an example:
>
> NAIC - $40 + $14*5
> Bivio - $59
> Broker - $144 for commissions
> Bank - $2 a month for a bank check
>
> Break this out per person per month - $5.62 per person per month. So out of
> my $30 minimum payment I get $24.38 put directly into the club. Which leaves
> the club with $121.90 per month to invest. OUCH!!
>
> For a 20 person club it is $1.41 per person a month, or $28.59 to invest or
> $571.80 to invest per month.
>
> Something needs to give... otherwise starting clubs become discouraged
> quickly.
>
> My club started in May of 2000 with 13 people. We are down to 9, and we have
> a total return of -6% on our stocks alone. Including all startup costs my
> current valuation is at -24.58%. How discouraging is that. Try to keep 8
> people in a club when they are losing 25% and we preached that we could
> double our money in 5 years... we got some work to do.
>
> Bottom Line: The small clubs are the ones that get hurt. And the starting
> clubs or young clubs get hurt even more. So stop spending time fighting over
> things. Rob - you are on peoples payroll now, you have customers that are
> paying, I wouldn't get into pissing matches on discussion boards...it looks
> bad.
>
> Tim

Tim makes some great points in the discussion, but I believe
that some follow-up points need to be made.

Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> I will repeat it again, if a club is just starting with say 5 people the
> start-up costs are VERY high. They need to evaluate joining NAIC, going with
> Bivio or going with NOCA or what have you. They need to choose a broker and
> everything. For the small start up club here is an example:
>
> NAIC - $40 + $14*5
> Bivio - $59
> Broker - $144 for commissions
> Bank - $2 a month for a bank check

At this point I would add that if you go with NOICA which is
free for the time being, (no telling for now, when they will
charge for this service) you will still have to buy NAIC's
Tax Report program to do year-end taxes, which will run
about $50 (no word for now at what that price will be).


> Break this out per person per month - $5.62 per person per month. So out of
> my $30 minimum payment I get $24.38 put directly into the club. Which leaves
> the club with $121.90 per month to invest. OUCH!!
>
> For a 20 person club it is $1.41 per person a month, or $28.59 to invest or
> $571.80 to invest per month.
>
> Something needs to give... otherwise starting clubs become discouraged
> quickly.

I will agree that starting a club with a small group is
difficult because it harder to spead out the cost
economically. But as you stated there's know getting around
it. Even though thats true, you still don't have to have 20
people to make it work (we're working with 8).


> My club started in May of 2000 with 13 people. We are down to 9, and we have
> a total return of -6% on our stocks alone. Including all startup costs my
> current valuation is at -24.58%. How discouraging is that. Try to keep 8
> people in a club when they are losing 25% and we preached that we could
> double our money in 5 years... we got some work to do.

At this point using NAIC's principles, I would preach that,
"NAIC say that we should work to have our portifolo double
every 5yrs. and it looks to me like your group doing fine
here (the market is down alot more then 6%). NAIC makes know
comment at all about individual returns, because they
understand their is a cost associated with doing business as
a club. Your group should stay encouraged to continue making
good stock selections at great pricies to double in this
time frame.

Guess Bryce and I were posting simultaneously, so my
questions concerning the cost of NAIC's online site are
answered, although exactly what it will cost is unknown.


Bryce Klempner wrote:
> > censorship. I'll leave your post up. All of bivio's messages ARE
> > censored on your (NAIC) message boards.
>
> ICLUBcentral has nothing to do with NAIC's boards, where the
> postings of many commercial players, ourselves included, may
> be censored.
>
> > Anyway, I looked all over your site for the "Taxes" button. I
> > couldn't find it. Will NOCA taxes be implemented for the 2001 tax
> > season?
>
> Yes, absolutely. The IRS, as you know, hasn't released 2001
> tax forms yet, but will do so starting today and over the
> next week....
>
> > * Is all of NOCA going to be free for all of 2002?
>
> As I've been saying for over half a year, I don't know yet.
> There may be a fee at some point, but how much of the site
> it applies to, who it applies to, how much it is, and when
> it'll be introduced are all up in the air.
>
> > * Will NOCA taxes be free for the 2001 tax season?
>
> Unclear, and depends what you mean by free. The short
> answer is probably not, just as they've never been entirely
> free in the past.
>
> Bryce
>
> ----------
> ICLUBcentral Inc.
> www.iclub.com

Sorry for the double post.
I wanted to end by saying that investment club should be
used for educating the partner, so that they may take the
knowledge gained from the group and apply it to individual
investments to hopfully get even better returns.

Brian Lancaster wrote:
> Tim makes some great points in the discussion, but I believe
> that some follow-up points need to be made.
>
> Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> > I will repeat it again, if a club is just starting with say 5 people the
> > start-up costs are VERY high. They need to evaluate joining NAIC, going with
> > Bivio or going with NOCA or what have you. They need to choose a broker and
> > everything. For the small start up club here is an example:
> >
> > NAIC - $40 + $14*5
> > Bivio - $59
> > Broker - $144 for commissions
> > Bank - $2 a month for a bank check
>
> At this point I would add that if you go with NOICA which is
> free for the time being, (no telling for now, when they will
> charge for this service) you will still have to buy NAIC's
> Tax Report program to do year-end taxes, which will run
> about $50 (no word for now at what that price will be).
>
>
> > Break this out per person per month - $5.62 per person per month. So out of
> > my $30 minimum payment I get $24.38 put directly into the club. Which leaves
> > the club with $121.90 per month to invest. OUCH!!
> >
> > For a 20 person club it is $1.41 per person a month, or $28.59 to invest or
> > $571.80 to invest per month.
> >
> > Something needs to give... otherwise starting clubs become discouraged
> > quickly.
>
> I will agree that starting a club with a small group is
> difficult because it harder to spead out the cost
> economically. But as you stated there's know getting around
> it. Even though thats true, you still don't have to have 20
> people to make it work (we're working with 8).
>
>
> > My club started in May of 2000 with 13 people. We are down to 9, and we have
> > a total return of -6% on our stocks alone. Including all startup costs my
> > current valuation is at -24.58%. How discouraging is that. Try to keep 8
> > people in a club when they are losing 25% and we preached that we could
> > double our money in 5 years... we got some work to do.
>
> At this point using NAIC's principles, I would preach that,
> "NAIC say that we should work to have our portifolo double
> every 5yrs. and it looks to me like your group doing fine
> here (the market is down alot more then 6%). NAIC makes know
> comment at all about individual returns, because they
> understand their is a cost associated with doing business as
> a club. Your group should stay encouraged to continue making
> good stock selections at great pricies to double in this
> time frame.

Brian - You are correct. It is funny how quickly that philosophy can be forgotten. I
am upset with myself for doing so. However, it is tough to educate the discouraged.
And how much should that education cost?

Brian Lancaster wrote:

> Sorry for the double post.
> I wanted to end by saying that investment club should be
> used for educating the partner, so that they may take the
> knowledge gained from the group and apply it to individual
> investments to hopfully get even better returns.
>
> Brian Lancaster wrote:
> > Tim makes some great points in the discussion, but I believe
> > that some follow-up points need to be made.
> >
> > Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> > > I will repeat it again, if a club is just starting with say 5 people the
> > > start-up costs are VERY high. They need to evaluate joining NAIC, going with
> > > Bivio or going with NOCA or what have you. They need to choose a broker and
> > > everything. For the small start up club here is an example:
> > >
> > > NAIC - $40 + $14*5
> > > Bivio - $59
> > > Broker - $144 for commissions
> > > Bank - $2 a month for a bank check
> >
> > At this point I would add that if you go with NOICA which is
> > free for the time being, (no telling for now, when they will
> > charge for this service) you will still have to buy NAIC's
> > Tax Report program to do year-end taxes, which will run
> > about $50 (no word for now at what that price will be).
> >
> >
> > > Break this out per person per month - $5.62 per person per month. So out of
> > > my $30 minimum payment I get $24.38 put directly into the club. Which leaves
> > > the club with $121.90 per month to invest. OUCH!!
> > >
> > > For a 20 person club it is $1.41 per person a month, or $28.59 to invest or
> > > $571.80 to invest per month.
> > >
> > > Something needs to give... otherwise starting clubs become discouraged
> > > quickly.
> >
> > I will agree that starting a club with a small group is
> > difficult because it harder to spead out the cost
> > economically. But as you stated there's know getting around
> > it. Even though thats true, you still don't have to have 20
> > people to make it work (we're working with 8).
> >
> >
> > > My club started in May of 2000 with 13 people. We are down to 9, and we have
> > > a total return of -6% on our stocks alone. Including all startup costs my
> > > current valuation is at -24.58%. How discouraging is that. Try to keep 8
> > > people in a club when they are losing 25% and we preached that we could
> > > double our money in 5 years... we got some work to do.
> >
> > At this point using NAIC's principles, I would preach that,
> > "NAIC say that we should work to have our portifolo double
> > every 5yrs. and it looks to me like your group doing fine
> > here (the market is down alot more then 6%). NAIC makes know
> > comment at all about individual returns, because they
> > understand their is a cost associated with doing business as
> > a club. Your group should stay encouraged to continue making
> > good stock selections at great pricies to double in this
> > time frame.

Hopfully less then 4yrs. of college (LOL).
We work hard at trying to control the cost with doing this
business (operating an investment club) while remembering
that anything worth having is worth working for. This is
truly what a small group has to understand about running a
club as you so well put it.

Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> Brian - You are correct. It is funny how quickly that philosophy can be forgotten. I
> am upset with myself for doing so. However, it is tough to educate the discouraged.
> And how much should that education cost?

Hi Rip,
Thanks for clarifying what I obviously misunderstood. Hope
you and Jerry are doing well.

tim

Rip West wrote:
> <<
> I was a bit disappointed to see Rip and Jerry leave Bivio, but I'd
> expect, with them now working for NAIC, that the online site will
> improve, maybe even someday be as good as Bivio's.But I wouldn't expect
> to get it for free. I know both (Rip and Jerry) don't like NAIC's
> encryption, nor did they like the NAIC's censorship practices concerning
> Bivio, and I would certainly like to see them weigh in here.
> >>
>
> Well, I will weigh in with a few thoughts. First of all, I am utterly
> amazed at the reaction of some users objecting to a subscription fee by
> bivio. For over two years, bivio has furnished free accounting, free tax
> prepartation, free advice on taxes, accounting and investment clubs. Now
> they find they must charge a fee to continue. Gimme a break. How can
> anyone feel betrayed?
>
> Secondly, there is seems to be a lot of confusion about who the parties
> are. Bryce tried to clear it up, but I will try again. IClub [with whom
> I am now associated] and NAIC are two very separate entities. Easyware's
> software for club accounting was the only package approved by NAIC.
> IClub bought out Easyware, and now is the only approved accounting
> software by NAIC. I'm not getting into the rights or wrongs of that, but
> would point out that Iclub has no power to censor anyone's emails, nor
> have they done so.
>
> <<
> Possibly they've been censored also, although it is understandable if
> you're being paid by a company you can hardly critisize their practices
> online. Hopefully they will bring about change in the NAIC.
> >>
>
> As I said before, Iclub can not and does not censor. Naic is another
> story, and I have a lot of thoughts about that. But that's a different
> story. I think the issue here is that you have options in selecting
> accounting software. Probably all options will cost some money, but
> considering the costs of other software packages, and what you get, I
> fail to see that as a big problem. bivio has a fine product. Iclub is
> rapidly catching up, and offers the abilty to exchange between a desktop
> product and online. Jerry and I will be working as hard as we can to
> keep improving it.
>
> Peace,
>
> Rip West
> www.iclub.com --- rip@iclub.com