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A simple report
My club members would like me to provide each month what
they feel is a fairly simple report:
- How much have we invested (in total for all years)
- What do we have to show for it

Now, simplistically, what we've invested is our monthly cash
investments plus the dividends received that were
reinvested.

What we have to show for it is all our cash plus the market
value of our investments. (interest received and dividends
not reinvested are either buried in our cash or investment
holdings)

Sounds simple to me - but Bivio doesn't look at the world
this way. Is there some suggestion of how to easily do this
every month?

Thanks.............Jay
In a message dated 04/24/10 16:18:53 Eastern Daylight Time, jsternin@bivio.com writes:
My club members would like me to provide each month what
they feel is a fairly simple report:
- How much have we invested (in total for all years)
- What do we have to show for it

Now, simplistically, what we've invested is our monthly cash
investments plus the dividends received that were
reinvested.
 
No, dividend reinvestment is irrelevant. All you've invested is the cash you've contributed less any funds removed from the club.
What we have to show for it is all our cash plus the market
value of our investments.  (interest received and dividends
not reinvested are either buried in our cash or investment
holdings)
And dividends reinvested are buried in your investment holdings as well.
Sounds simple to me - but Bivio doesn't look at the world
this way.  Is there some suggestion of how to easily do this
every month?
Compare total contributions to current value.
 
Ira Smilovitz
Join me at InvestEd 2010
Investor Education at Its BestTM
Baltimore, MD August 6 - 8, 2010
http://www.investor-education2010.org/
Forgive me naivete, but doesn't the valuation report tell you this?

Ellen
End Game Investment Club


Ellen Shershow Pena Photography
415.690.0278



On Apr 24, 2010, at 1:30 PM, iras1 wrote:

In a message dated 04/24/10 16:18:53 Eastern Daylight Time, jsternin@bivio.com writes:
My club members would like me to provide each month what
they feel is a fairly simple report:
- How much have we invested (in total for all years)
- What do we have to show for it

Now, simplistically, what we've invested is our monthly cash
investments plus the dividends received that were
reinvested.
 
No, dividend reinvestment is irrelevant. All you've invested is the cash you've contributed less any funds removed from the club.
What we have to show for it is all our cash plus the market
value of our investments.  (interest received and dividends
not reinvested are either buried in our cash or investment
holdings)
And dividends reinvested are buried in your investment holdings as well.
Sounds simple to me - but Bivio doesn't look at the world
this way.  Is there some suggestion of how to easily do this
every month?
Compare total contributions to current value.
 
Ira Smilovitz
Join me at InvestEd 2010
Investor Education at Its BestTM
Baltimore, MD August 6 - 8, 2010
http://www.investor-education2010.org/

> My club members would like me to provide each month
> what they feel is a fairly simple report:
> - How much have we invested (in total for all years)
> - What do we have to show for it

The Performance Benchmark report will show:
    - How much has been invested (over the lifetime of the club)
    - How much has been withdrawn (over the lifetime of the club)
    - The total current value of the club
    - The annualized rate of return (IRR) which resulted from the above

Also shown is the rate of return (IRR) that would have resulted if you had
put what you invested over the years into (and take your withdrawals from)
the Vanguard S&P 500 Index fund (VFINX). This is one measure of whether or
not the club's investment activities "beat the market".

You can adjust the report to make that evaluation over any desired time
period, or with many other Vanguard funds (such as VTSMX - Total Stock
Market Index).

-Jim Thomas
> Forgive me naivete, but doesn't the valuation report tell you this? <
 
The Valuation report shows (Total Cost Basis) only the amounts invested into stocks currently held.  That could be greater or less than the total amount invested by members over the lifetime of the club.
 
-Jim Thomas
 

> My club members would like me to provide each month what

> they feel is a fairly simple report:

> - How much have we invested (in total for all years)

> - What do we have to show for it?

Hi Jay,

This is a particularly timely question for me as I spent the past week immersing myself in the subtleties of the Performance Benchmark Report in preparation for a presentation I gave on Saturday.

I think a lot of us tend to want to evaluate our investing efforts by asking the question,  “How much did I put into this and how much did I get out of it?”   The only problem with making the question quite that simple is that the issue of time isn’t part of it.  If I put $50 in on Jan. 1 of this year and have $100 at the end of the year,  I am having better investing success than if I put $50 in on Jan. 1 of this year and have $100 at the end of the year 5 years from now.

This is why IRR is such an interesting measure.  It is a measure of rate of return.  It tells me how well or how “quickly”  I’ve made my investments grow.  

I find it useful to think of IRR as what I refer to as a “Magic CD” rate.  It’s as if, each time cash went into my club during the time period in question, I had a CD available that payed the IRR rate of interest and I invested my money in it.   Today, the value of my club is the sum of the values of all those CD’s.       

Each influx of money grew at the IRR rate for however long it was invested.

Your job as investors, is to make investing decisions which will keep your IRR at an attractive rate.   What is an attractive rate?  I think we’d agree that it’s a rate that’s higher than you could earn by investing your money elsewhere.  That’s why we do “benchmarking”.   You can easily compare your club’s IRR to CD rates at your local bank.  Hopefully you are achieving better returns than you would have if you had put your contributions into them.  But,  it’s also interesting to see whether you’re able to make your contributions grow faster in your club than just putting them into a different investment, for example an index fund.

This is what the bivio Performance Benchmark Report tells you.   For a given time period and your exact cash flows,  it tells you your Club IRR and the IRR you would have achieved if you had put your money into a different investment.     This is a true apples to apples comparison of “how you are doing” and I encourage you and all clubs to keep an eye on the feedback the report gives you.

 Laurie Frederiksen

 www.bivio.com

Laurie:
 
1. First question is, "what presentation did you give on Saturday on the Performance Benchmark Report (PBR) and is it available for review"?
 
2. Second question is about this whole topic of Club Performance, and the underlying question of individual member performance. Although I am an engineer and not an accountant, I fully agree with your observation about IRR , but it does not sell "out of the box" to our members. The PBR gives quite different results for the entire portfolio, depending upon the timeframe entered. If I use the VFINX as the benchmark, our club, in recent years, performs almost as well as VFINX, but not quite. I understand this "sad" fact, and chalk it up to the "fun" of selecting our own stocks and all of the other social and education benefits of our club, which are truly on a par with that of "making money". That said, IRR is still the only way to fly, but I have to work on the education aspect of its acceptance.
 
3. Third point is that at the Portfolio level, our club generates a simple, YTD, performance measure each month. Each year we create a new baseline as the overall value of the portfolio on 1 January. It is then a relatively simple matter to add member contributions, subtract member distributions, and generate a simple YTD return for the club. It is also relatively straight-forward to compare this YTD return with that of the DJI Industrials, the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ. The problem with this simple portfolio metric is that it provides no measure of cumulative portfolio performance over the years, but the members are comfortable with it. I sometimes liken this perspective to that of re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic....
 
4. At the individual stock level, the Investment Performance Report (IPR) provided by Bivio is even more subject to misunderstanding and rejection by the members. For our club, I back-entered all data, by hand, to 1.1.2008. We have been in business more than fifty years, and that is as far back as I could practicably enter data by hand. If I run the IPR from 1.1.2008, the IPR will list FCX at -41.1%, BA at -3.1% and GE at -18.4%, just to highlight three of our current 26 stocks in the portfolio. If I run the IPR from 1.1.2010 to date ( in effect, YTD), the IPR will list FCX at -2.3%, BA at +184.0%, and GE at +114.0%. The members are conditioned to accept YTD data, and this conditioning over-rules any notion of IRR. Help!
 
5. I also believe that portfolio and individual stock performance has to be measured and understood within the club's overall investment strategy, risk tolerance and trading agility. We are not a trading club. We don't do options, either. We basically buy and hold, although on my darker moments, I might characterize our investment strategy as "buy and forget, sell when you want a new toy". I am determined to work with Bivio, ManifestInvesting, the Club Cafe forum and our club members to advance and improve our sense of both portfolio and individual stock performance in a manner that makes sense to our club members.
 
Best Regards,
 
Leo


From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of Laurie Frederiksen
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:08 AM
To: 'The Club Cafe'
Subject: RE: club_cafe: A simple report

> My club members would like me to provide each month what

> they feel is a fairly simple report:

> - How much have we invested (in total for all years)

> - What do we have to show for it?

Hi Jay,

This is a particularly timely question for me as I spent the past week immersing myself in the subtleties of the Performance Benchmark Report in preparation for a presentation I gave on Saturday.

I think a lot of us tend to want to evaluate our investing efforts by asking the question,  “How much did I put into this and how much did I get out of it?”   The only problem with making the question quite that simple is that the issue of time isn’t part of it.  If I put $50 in on Jan. 1 of this year and have $100 at the end of the year,  I am having better investing success than if I put $50 in on Jan. 1 of this year and have $100 at the end of the year 5 years from now.

This is why IRR is such an interesting measure.  It is a measure of rate of return.  It tells me how well or how “quickly”  I’ve made my investments grow.  

I find it useful to think of IRR as what I refer to as a “Magic CD” rate.  It’s as if, each time cash went into my club during the time period in question, I had a CD available that payed the IRR rate of interest and I invested my money in it.   Today, the value of my club is the sum of the values of all those CD’s.       

Each influx of money grew at the IRR rate for however long it was invested.

Your job as investors, is to make investing decisions which will keep your IRR at an attractive rate.   What is an attractive rate?  I think we’d agree that it’s a rate that’s higher than you could earn by investing your money elsewhere.  That’s why we do “benchmarking”.   You can easily compare your club’s IRR to CD rates at your local bank.  Hopefully you are achieving better returns than you would have if you had put your contributions into them.  But,  it’s also interesting to see whether you’re able to make your contributions grow faster in your club than just putting them into a different investment, for example an index fund.

This is what the bivio Performance Benchmark Report tells you.   For a given time period and your exact cash flows,  it tells you your Club IRR and the IRR you would have achieved if you had put your money into a different investment.     This is a true apples to apples comparison of “how you are doing” and I encourage you and all clubs to keep an eye on the feedback the report gives you.

 Laurie Frederiksen

 www.bivio.com

Simple, yes. Meaningful or accurate, no. Comparable to the YTD returns of an index, maybe, but not the way you think. Your YTD calculation assumes that all member transactions (contributions/distributions) occur on January 1. It eliminates any time effect of member transactions occurring later in the year.
 
For instance, let's assume your club had $10K of value on January 1. $1000 was added to the club during the year and had a value of $12K on December 31. Using your metric, the club would have had a return of $1000 on an $11K base, or roughly 9%. That would be true if the full $1K were deposited on 1/1. However, if the $1K were deposited on 12/30, the club's performance would really be a $1K gain on a $10K base, or 10%. The additional $1K didn't contribute to the club's performance since it wasn't part of the investment pool for more than 1 day.
 
So, while your method allows you to compare to an index, since you're effectively considering your club as if it invested a single amount on 1/1 and nothing else, the comparison isn't accurate since your club's return isn't accurate.
 
Ira Smilovitz
Join me at InvestEd 2010
Investor Education at Its BestTM
Baltimore, MD August 6 - 8, 2010
http://www.investor-education2010.org/
 
In a message dated 04/26/10 15:42:32 Eastern Daylight Time, cardillo@bellatlantic.net writes:
3. Third point is that at the Portfolio level, our club generates a simple, YTD, performance measure each month. Each year we create a new baseline as the overall value of the portfolio on 1 January. It is then a relatively simple matter to add member contributions, subtract member distributions, and generate a simple YTD return for the club. It is also relatively straight-forward to compare this YTD return with that of the DJI Industrials, the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ. The problem with this simple portfolio metric is that it provides no measure of cumulative portfolio performance over the years, but the members are comfortable with it. I sometimes liken this perspective to that of re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic....
 
 

Hi Leo,

I gave the presentation at the Mid Michigan BetterInvesting Regional conference that was held this past Saturday.

I have posted it here:

www.bivio.com/hn/benchmarking-your-portfolio.pdf

I will probably do it as a webinar also.  If I can find back room helpers, perhaps on May 15 when I can combine it with the drawing for the free subscription for our “gold star” clubs.


I am an engineer also and that’s why I struggled when I really focused on what IRR is all about and what I could do with it.  While mathematically I can understand that it’s “the discount rate which makes the net present value of all the cash flows zero”,   I still needed to figure out what I could do with that information that would help me with my investing activities.

That is why I ended up thinking of IRR as a “magic CD” rate.     It is a rate of return I received each time I made an investment in my club during the period I am looking at.  I find this an easy idea for me to relate to to decide how successful I’m being at making investing decisions.   

It’s easy for me to understand whether I’ve done better by putting my money into my club than into  CD’s  and it’s interesting to have a way to make a true apples to apples comparison about whether I am doing better than just putting the same money into an index fund.

With this information,  I can understand whether I should keep doing what I’m doing or make changes to my methodology.

If your club is not doing as well as the benchmark,  I don’t think that is a reason to despair.  A club is a learning (as well as social) activity.  What is probably more interesting to follow is the change in your relative rate of return (the difference between the club and the benchmark IRR’s).   I was very surprised when I plotted this for my own club for the last two years to see a graph like this:

What I like about this graph is the trend line.  Believe me,  it hasn’t always looked this nice but it does appear like we are making improvements in something we are doing when we choose our investments.

I know we would all like a simple calculation where we take what we end up with and subtract what we have contributed to determine how we’re doing.   The problem with this is that it does not take the time value of money into account and can mislead us into thinking we are doing better or worse at making investing decisions than we really are.

Investing decisions should be made by being focused on optimizing your rate of return going forward.  Too often,  they are made by looking at historical gains and losses with no sense of the time frame involved in producing them.   By focusing on your IRR and making decisions that appear as though they will optimize your rate of return,  your overall or total return should take care of itself.

This is one of the fundamental thoughts behind the ManifestInvesting methodology.  Manifest Dashboards are not a snapshot of how you’ve done,  they are a projection of how you might do with a given portfolio of investments.  If you keep your eye on optimizing your portfolio PAR,  you will always be focusing on thinking about the future, not the past.

You also have good questions about the IRR report for specific investments and I owe Lynn an answer on that also.  It is a different subject so rather than try and pile in too much information here,  I will address it in a future post.

Laurie

IRA,

Yes.........thanks.  I see and agree.

As Laurie (correctly) points out, this does not take Time into consideration.  But IRR is not an easy sell.  

"I've put in $xx so now what's my share worth?"  is the prevalent (perhaps myopic) seat of the pants view.

Thanks...........Jay

--- On Sat, 4/24/10, iras1 <iras1@aol.com> wrote:

From: iras1 <iras1@aol.com>
Subject: Re: club_cafe: A simple report
To: "The Club Cafe" <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 8:30 PM

In a message dated 04/24/10 16:18:53 Eastern Daylight Time, jsternin@bivio.com writes:
My club members would like me to provide each month what
they feel is a fairly simple report:
- How much have we invested (in total for all years)
- What do we have to show for it

Now, simplistically, what we've invested is our monthly cash
investments plus the dividends received that were
reinvested.
 
No, dividend reinvestment is irrelevant. All you've invested is the cash you've contributed less any funds removed from the club.
What we have to show for it is all our cash plus the market
value of our investments.  (interest received and dividends
not reinvested are either buried in our cash or investment
holdings)
And dividends reinvested are buried in your investment holdings as well.
Sounds simple to me - but Bivio doesn't look at the world
this way.  Is there some suggestion of how to easily do this
every month?
Compare total contributions to current value.
 
Ira Smilovitz
Join me at InvestEd 2010
Investor Education at Its BestTM
Baltimore, MD August 6 - 8, 2010
http://www.investor-education2010.org/

Hi Leo,
 
I'm sure that Laurie will be responding, but I think that Return on Investment is an important and often misunderstood subject, so I am glad that you are keeping the dialog going.
 
<<The PBR gives quite different results for the entire portfolio, depending upon the timeframe entered.>>
 
Absolutely correct. As do any of the measurements quoted by the mutual funds. Different timeframes, different results.
 
<<
Each year we create a new baseline as the overall value of the portfolio on 1 January. It is then a relatively simple matter to add member contributions, subtract member distributions, and generate a simple YTD return for the club. It is also relatively straight-forward to compare this YTD return with that of the DJI Industrials, the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ.
>>
 
How do you perform the comparison? It's only valid if you consider the same money coming into these indexes at the same time the money came into your club. And what about dividends paid on the indexes?
 
<<
If I run the IPR from 1.1.2008, the IPR will list FCX at -41.1%, BA at -3.1% and GE at -18.4%, just to highlight three of our current 26 stocks in the portfolio. If I run the IPR from 1.1.2010 to date ( in effect, YTD), the IPR will list FCX at -2.3%, BA at +184.0%, and GE at +114.0%. The members are conditioned to accept YTD data, and this conditioning over-rules any notion of IRR. Help!
>>
 
Yes, the Internal Rate of Return, when annualized after just a few months, can be extremely misleading. I would never run it for less than 9 months. How about changing your approach to showing the last 12 months?
 
Again, I think it's great that you are contributing to this discussion. I hope others will do the same, and, maybe, we can all learn something about this complicated subject.
 
Rip West
Saint Paul, MN
Rip, Laurie, et al:
 
I enjoy the dialogue - this is a subtle but critical issue and there is much to learn and master.
 
I also recognize that our traditional YTD metric does not account for time basis - our club was 100% snap-shot based until we adopted AccountSynch in June 2009. We are now more and more time-based from taxes to units of ownership, et al. The traditional YTD performance metric is presented every month as much in honor of our now-passed and legendary Treasurer, as anything else. Tradition serves a place, I am sure. 
 
And I recognize the distortion that too short a timeframe can create on IRR. I present the short time frame so that the YTD itch can be "approximated".
 
I have a lot to learn about all this, but I am placing my bet on IRR as calculated by Bivio, both for overall Portfolio performance with a benchmark, and for individual stock performance, as well. IRR is the ONLY way to fly - now we just have to make it user-friendly and understandable, as Laurie has suggested.
 
Best Regards,
 
Leo


From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of Rip West
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 4:43 PM
To: The Club Cafe
Subject: Re: club_cafe: A simple report

Hi Leo,
 
I'm sure that Laurie will be responding, but I think that Return on Investment is an important and often misunderstood subject, so I am glad that you are keeping the dialog going.
 
<<The PBR gives quite different results for the entire portfolio, depending upon the timeframe entered.>>
 
Absolutely correct. As do any of the measurements quoted by the mutual funds. Different timeframes, different results.
 
<<
Each year we create a new baseline as the overall value of the portfolio on 1 January. It is then a relatively simple matter to add member contributions, subtract member distributions, and generate a simple YTD return for the club. It is also relatively straight-forward to compare this YTD return with that of the DJI Industrials, the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ.
>>
 
How do you perform the comparison? It's only valid if you consider the same money coming into these indexes at the same time the money came into your club. And what about dividends paid on the indexes?
 
<<
If I run the IPR from 1.1.2008, the IPR will list FCX at -41.1%, BA at -3.1% and GE at -18.4%, just to highlight three of our current 26 stocks in the portfolio. If I run the IPR from 1.1.2010 to date ( in effect, YTD), the IPR will list FCX at -2.3%, BA at +184.0%, and GE at +114.0%. The members are conditioned to accept YTD data, and this conditioning over-rules any notion of IRR. Help!
>>
 
Yes, the Internal Rate of Return, when annualized after just a few months, can be extremely misleading. I would never run it for less than 9 months. How about changing your approach to showing the last 12 months?
 
Again, I think it's great that you are contributing to this discussion. I hope others will do the same, and, maybe, we can all learn something about this complicated subject.
 
Rip West
Saint Paul, MN
> It is also relatively straight-forward to compare this
> YTD return with that of the DJI Industrials, the S&P 500
> and the NASDAQ. The problem with this simple portfolio
> metric ...
 
Among other problems mentioned, likely you are ignoring the dividends paid by stocks in the S&P 500 or other index.
 
> "I've put in $xx so now what's my share worth?" is the prevalent (perhaps myopic) seat of the pants view. <
 
That's what the Member Status report shows you.
 
What you've put in is Total Paid.
What it's worth now is Market Value.
 
However, there is no easy way to compare those results with anything else to evaluate how good or bad they might be.
 
-Jim Thomas
 
> I have a lot to learn about all this, but I am placing my bet
> on IRR as calculated by Bivio, both for overall Portfolio performance
> with a benchmark, and for individual stock performance, as well.
 
Keep in mind that IRR is only meaningful if you have something appropriate to compare it with.  That is the purpose of the Performance Benchmark report ... to give you something appropriate to compare with.  Any specific IRR value is only good or bad in comparison to the IRR of something else you might have invested in.
 
IRRs for individual stocks are not, in general, something you can compare with each other.  On the Investment Performance report, for example, it generaly tells you nothing to compare the IRRs for the various stocks with each other (i.e., in general, the largest IRR isn't the best investment).  Those individual stock IRRs are usually all computed over different length time periods (see the Return Since column) and some stocks may have been acquired via multiple purchases and may include sales (which you can only find out by investigating the transaction history for the individual stocks).
 
-Jim Thomas