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My club members would like me to provide each month what they feel is a fairly simple report: - How much have we invested (in total for all years) - What do we have to show for it Now, simplistically, what we've invested is our monthly cash investments plus the dividends received that were reinvested. What we have to show for it is all our cash plus the market value of our investments. (interest received and dividends not reinvested are either buried in our cash or investment holdings) Sounds simple to me - but Bivio doesn't look at the world this way. Is there some suggestion of how to easily do this every month? Thanks.............Jay In a message dated 04/24/10 16:18:53 Eastern Daylight Time, jsternin@bivio.com writes:
No, dividend reinvestment is irrelevant. All you've invested is the cash you've contributed less any funds removed from the club.
And dividends reinvested are buried in your investment holdings as well.
Compare total contributions to current value.
Ira Smilovitz
Join me at InvestEd 2010
Investor Education at Its BestTM Baltimore, MD August 6 - 8, 2010 http://www.investor-education2010.org/ Forgive me naivete, but doesn't the valuation report tell you this? Ellen End Game Investment Club On Apr 24, 2010, at 1:30 PM, iras1 wrote:
> My club members would like me to provide each month > what they feel is a fairly simple report: > - How much have we invested (in total for all years) > - What do we have to show for it The Performance Benchmark report will show: - How much has been invested (over the lifetime of the club) - How much has been withdrawn (over the lifetime of the club) - The total current value of the club - The annualized rate of return (IRR) which resulted from the above Also shown is the rate of return (IRR) that would have resulted if you had put what you invested over the years into (and take your withdrawals from) the Vanguard S&P 500 Index fund (VFINX). This is one measure of whether or not the club's investment activities "beat the market". You can adjust the report to make that evaluation over any desired time period, or with many other Vanguard funds (such as VTSMX - Total Stock Market Index). -Jim Thomas > Forgive me naivete, but doesn't the valuation report tell you this?
<
The Valuation report shows (Total Cost Basis) only
the amounts invested into stocks currently held. That could be
greater or less than the total amount invested by members over the lifetime of
the club.
-Jim Thomas
> My club members would like me to provide each month what > they feel is a fairly simple report: > - How much have we invested (in total for all years) > - What do we have to show for it?
Laurie:
1. First question is, "what presentation did you give on
Saturday on the Performance Benchmark Report (PBR) and is it available for
review"?
2. Second question is about this whole topic of Club
Performance, and the underlying question of individual member performance.
Although I am an engineer and not an accountant, I fully agree with your
observation about IRR , but it does not sell "out of the box" to our members.
The PBR gives quite different results for the entire portfolio, depending
upon the timeframe entered. If I use the VFINX as the benchmark, our club, in
recent years, performs almost as well as VFINX, but not quite. I understand this
"sad" fact, and chalk it up to the "fun" of selecting our own stocks and all of
the other social and education benefits of our club, which are truly on a par
with that of "making money". That said, IRR is still the only way to fly, but I
have to work on the education aspect of its acceptance.
3. Third point is that at the Portfolio level, our club
generates a simple, YTD, performance measure each month. Each year we create a
new baseline as the overall value of the portfolio on 1 January. It is then a
relatively simple matter to add member contributions, subtract member
distributions, and generate a simple YTD return for the club. It is also
relatively straight-forward to compare this YTD return with that of the DJI
Industrials, the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ. The problem with this simple
portfolio metric is that it provides no measure of cumulative portfolio
performance over the years, but the members are comfortable with it. I sometimes
liken this perspective to that of re-arranging the deck chairs on the
Titanic....
4. At
the individual stock level, the Investment Performance Report
(IPR) provided by Bivio is even more subject to misunderstanding and
rejection by the members. For our club, I back-entered all data, by hand, to
1.1.2008. We have been in business more than fifty years, and that is as far
back as I could practicably enter data by hand. If I run the IPR from 1.1.2008,
the IPR will list FCX at -41.1%, BA at -3.1% and GE at -18.4%, just to highlight
three of our current 26 stocks in the portfolio. If I run the IPR from 1.1.2010
to date ( in effect, YTD), the IPR will list FCX at -2.3%, BA at +184.0%, and GE
at +114.0%. The members are conditioned to accept YTD data, and this
conditioning over-rules any notion of IRR. Help!
5. I
also believe that portfolio and individual stock performance has to be measured
and understood within the club's overall investment strategy, risk tolerance and
trading agility. We are not a trading club. We don't do options, either. We
basically buy and hold, although on my darker moments, I might characterize our
investment strategy as "buy and forget, sell when you want a new toy". I am
determined to work with Bivio, ManifestInvesting, the Club Cafe forum and our
club members to advance and improve our sense of both portfolio and
individual stock performance in a manner that makes sense to our club
members.
Best
Regards,
Leo
From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of Laurie Frederiksen Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:08 AM To: 'The Club Cafe' Subject: RE: club_cafe: A simple report > My club members would like me to provide each month what > they feel is a fairly simple report: > - How much have we invested (in total for all years) > - What do we have to show for it?
Simple, yes. Meaningful or accurate, no. Comparable to the YTD returns of an index, maybe, but not the way you think. Your YTD calculation assumes that all member transactions (contributions/distributions) occur on January 1. It eliminates any time effect of member transactions occurring later in the year.
For instance, let's assume your club had $10K of value on January 1. $1000 was added to the club during the year and had a value of $12K on December 31. Using your metric, the club would have had a return of $1000 on an $11K base, or roughly 9%. That would be true if the full $1K were deposited on 1/1. However, if the $1K were deposited on 12/30, the club's performance would really be a $1K gain on a $10K base, or 10%. The additional $1K didn't contribute to the club's performance since it wasn't part of the investment pool for more than 1 day.
So, while your method allows you to compare to an index, since you're effectively considering your club as if it invested a single amount on 1/1 and nothing else, the comparison isn't accurate since your club's return isn't accurate.
Ira Smilovitz
Join me at InvestEd 2010
Investor Education at Its BestTM Baltimore, MD August 6 - 8, 2010 http://www.investor-education2010.org/ In a message dated 04/26/10 15:42:32 Eastern Daylight Time, cardillo@bellatlantic.net writes:
Hi Leo,
I'm sure that Laurie will be responding, but I think that Return on
Investment is an important and often misunderstood subject, so I am glad that
you are keeping the dialog going.
<<The PBR gives quite different
results for the entire portfolio, depending upon the timeframe
entered.>>
Absolutely correct. As do any of the measurements quoted by the mutual
funds. Different timeframes, different results.
<<
Each year we create a new baseline as the
overall value of the portfolio on 1 January. It is then a relatively simple
matter to add member contributions, subtract member distributions, and generate
a simple YTD return for the club. It is also relatively straight-forward to
compare this YTD return with that of the DJI Industrials, the S&P 500 and
the NASDAQ.
>>
How do you perform the comparison? It's only valid if you consider the same
money coming into these indexes at the same time the money came into your club.
And what about dividends paid on the indexes?
<<
If I run the IPR from 1.1.2008, the IPR will
list FCX at -41.1%, BA at -3.1% and GE at -18.4%, just to highlight three of our
current 26 stocks in the portfolio. If I run the IPR from 1.1.2010 to date ( in
effect, YTD), the IPR will list FCX at -2.3%, BA at +184.0%, and GE at +114.0%.
The members are conditioned to accept YTD data, and this conditioning over-rules
any notion of IRR. Help!
>>
Yes, the Internal Rate of Return, when annualized after just a few months,
can be extremely misleading. I would never run it for less than 9 months. How
about changing your approach to showing the last 12 months?
Again, I think it's great that you are contributing to this discussion. I
hope others will do the same, and, maybe, we can all learn something about this
complicated subject.
Rip West
Saint Paul, MN Rip, Laurie, et al:
I enjoy the dialogue - this is a subtle but critical issue and
there is much to learn and master.
I also recognize that our traditional YTD metric does not
account for time basis - our club was 100% snap-shot based until we adopted
AccountSynch in June 2009. We are now more and more time-based from taxes to
units of ownership, et al. The traditional YTD performance metric is presented
every month as much in honor of our now-passed and legendary Treasurer, as
anything else. Tradition serves a place, I am sure.
And I recognize the distortion that too short a timeframe can
create on IRR. I present the short time frame so that the YTD itch can be
"approximated".
I have a lot to learn about all this, but I am placing my bet
on IRR as calculated by Bivio, both for overall Portfolio performance with a
benchmark, and for individual stock performance, as well. IRR is the ONLY way to
fly - now we just have to make it user-friendly and understandable, as Laurie
has suggested.
Best Regards,
Leo From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of Rip West Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 4:43 PM To: The Club Cafe Subject: Re: club_cafe: A simple report Hi Leo,
I'm sure that Laurie will be responding, but I think that Return on
Investment is an important and often misunderstood subject, so I am glad that
you are keeping the dialog going.
<<The PBR gives quite different
results for the entire portfolio, depending upon the timeframe
entered.>>
Absolutely correct. As do any of the measurements quoted by the mutual
funds. Different timeframes, different results.
<<
Each year we create a new baseline as the
overall value of the portfolio on 1 January. It is then a relatively simple
matter to add member contributions, subtract member distributions, and generate
a simple YTD return for the club. It is also relatively straight-forward to
compare this YTD return with that of the DJI Industrials, the S&P 500 and
the NASDAQ.
>>
How do you perform the comparison? It's only valid if you consider the same
money coming into these indexes at the same time the money came into your club.
And what about dividends paid on the indexes?
<<
If I run the IPR from 1.1.2008, the IPR will
list FCX at -41.1%, BA at -3.1% and GE at -18.4%, just to highlight three of our
current 26 stocks in the portfolio. If I run the IPR from 1.1.2010 to date ( in
effect, YTD), the IPR will list FCX at -2.3%, BA at +184.0%, and GE at +114.0%.
The members are conditioned to accept YTD data, and this conditioning over-rules
any notion of IRR. Help!
>>
Yes, the Internal Rate of Return, when annualized after just a few months,
can be extremely misleading. I would never run it for less than 9 months. How
about changing your approach to showing the last 12 months?
Again, I think it's great that you are contributing to this discussion. I
hope others will do the same, and, maybe, we can all learn something about this
complicated subject.
Rip West
Saint Paul, MN >
It is also relatively straight-forward to compare this
>
YTD return with that of the DJI Industrials, the S&P 500
>
and the NASDAQ. The problem with this simple portfolio
>
metric ...
Among
other problems mentioned, likely you are ignoring the dividends paid
by stocks in the S&P 500 or other index.
> "I've put in $xx so now what's my share
worth?" is the prevalent (perhaps myopic) seat of the pants view.
<
That's what the Member Status report shows
you.
What you've put in is Total Paid.
What it's worth now is Market Value.
However, there is no easy way to compare those
results with anything else to evaluate how good or bad they might
be.
-Jim Thomas
> I
have a lot to learn about all this, but I am placing my bet
>
on IRR as calculated by Bivio, both for overall Portfolio performance
>
with a benchmark, and for individual stock performance, as well.
Keep in mind that IRR is only meaningful if
you have something appropriate to compare it with. That is the purpose of
the Performance Benchmark report ... to give you something appropriate to
compare with. Any specific IRR value is only good or bad in comparison to
the IRR of something else you might have invested in.
IRRs for individual stocks are not, in general,
something you can compare with each other. On the Investment Performance
report, for example, it generaly tells you nothing to compare the IRRs for the
various stocks with each other (i.e., in general, the largest IRR isn't the best
investment). Those individual stock IRRs are usually all computed over
different length time periods (see the Return Since column) and some stocks
may have been acquired via multiple purchases and may include sales (which you
can only find out by investigating the transaction history for the
individual stocks).
-Jim Thomas |
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