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Options Trading
Hi Everyone,

I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on options trading.

Is it something your club does? Is it something you'd have an interest
in learning more about?

      Laurie Frederiksen
I share Laurie's curiosity re options trading.

Our club does not invest in options.

Years ago - circa 1967 - I started and ran a small family-oriented
investment club. At the time, I was a wild and wooly young turk and I traded
a lot of options. I didn't use options to protect existing positions, but
mostly to trade speculatively in the market. This was an expensive and
not-too-profitable experience, but I did learn a few things the hard way.

I'd welcome an opportunity to learn more about options, especially in
today's Investment Club context.

Best Regards,

Leo

-----Original Message-----
From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of Laurie
Frederiksen
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:07 AM
To: 'The Club Cafe'
Subject: club_cafe: Options Trading

Hi Everyone,

I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on options trading.

Is it something your club does? Is it something you'd have an interest in
learning more about?

      Laurie Frederiksen
Good timing Laurie.
Our club will have a speaker as an education segment at our May meeting. We may not use options in the club but believe it's good to understand at least the basics.
Cherilyn Peay
New Mexico

At 09:06 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on options trading.

Is it something your club does?  Is it something you'd have an interest
in learning more about?

      Laurie Frederiksen
I belong to two investment clubs each of which has been existence for over
40 years. In the Operating Agreements (By-laws) of both clubs we prohibit
short selling and option's trading. Our reason is the clubs are as they are
named "Investment" Clubs . The purpose is investing, not shooting craps.

Although you might disagree, we're a bunch of Seniors, and pretty
conservative with our investing.

Arthur Klages, Treas
Senoia Investment Club LLC

-----Original Message-----
From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of Laurie
Frederiksen
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:07 AM
To: 'The Club Cafe'
Subject: club_cafe: Options Trading

Hi Everyone,

I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on options trading.

Is it something your club does? Is it something you'd have an interest
in learning more about?

      Laurie Frederiksen
Options would be an excellent topic, Laurie, especially since bivio can handle the accounting for them.
My club does not deal with options yet, but we are building our portfolio with good quality dividend-paying stocks that we will use to sell covered calls later on down the road.
I, personally, started selling covered calls this year with the help of Mary Ann Davis. For those who don't know Mary Ann, she's a very popular, retired BI Chapter director who is now teaching for InvestEd. She has several classes on options buying and selling. One in particular, Selling Covered Calls, shows how to add 5% to 20% per year to our returns with this relatively safe practice. Mary Ann has several of her classes on CD, including this one. If you are interested in her titles, you can contact her at davismarya@sbcglobal.net She'll send you a list.
So yes, please provide us with information and education on options. It's nice to have new tools in our bag!
Lynn Ostrem
My club does not trade options.  I started trading them personally in late January and doing very well with it, so far.  I am using the service of a well known option trader.  I am always willing to learn more about any aspect of investing.  My club started two years ago and only has about 8k in investments so I don't the club is ready for option trading, yet.
 
John Rice


From: Laurie Frederiksen <laurie@bivio.biz>
To: The Club Cafe <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 8:06:33 AM
Subject: club_cafe: Options Trading

Hi Everyone,

I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on options trading.

Is it something your club does?  Is it something you'd have an interest
in learning more about?

      Laurie Frederiksen

Thanks Arthur,

I think that is certainly a valid way to operate. I agree
that trading options is not something to play with.

But, I know that I myself have a curiosity to learn more about
them. It is my understanding that there are some somewhat conservative
ways they can be used to enhance portfolio returns.

I believe we even have some clubs who are using them in this way.

If any of them are following this conversation it would be interesting
to hear their experiences.

   Laurie
Contrary to some posts on this subject, options do not have to be 'shooting craps'. Dealing with covered calls does not have to be overly speculative. On the other hand, I would be very interested to hear from people who use this technique if the results overcome the the commissions involved. Has your experience been good? And how about those cases where you wrote a call, and the underlying stock went up drastically. I know of one, in particular, dealing with Apple. Any more stories on that?
 
I think this is a topic well worth pursuing.
 
Rip West
Saint Paul, MN
 

Hi Rip….

Re my post…

Right or wrong, I was just conveying our club’s policy on options & short sales.

Arthur Klages Treas

Senior Investment Club LLC

Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 12:10 PM
To: The Club Cafe
Subject: Re: club_cafe: Options Trading

Contrary to some posts on this subject, options do not have to be 'shooting craps'. Dealing with covered calls does not have to be overly speculative. On the other hand, I would be very interested to hear from people who use this technique if the results overcome the the commissions involved. Has your experience been good? And how about those cases where you wrote a call, and the underlying stock went up drastically. I know of one, in particular, dealing with Apple. Any more stories on that?

 

I think this is a topic well worth pursuing.

 

Rip West
Saint Paul, MN

 

>Our reason is the clubs are as they are named "Investment" Clubs. The purpose is investing, not shooting craps.

I agree.

And therein lies the mystery to me: "Can *investing* be done
using options in a disciplined approach that could lead to
incrementally higher returns?"

"Is it possible that options could be used in a conservative
implementation for purposes of capital preservation or
income generation?"

I think the truth lies between Peter Lynch's, "I can't even
spell o-p-t-i-o-n-s ..." and something resembling day
trading.

If there's incremental potential, our Community could be
very well-served by exploring and *understanding* what is
possible.


Best wishes and Better Investing,

Mark Robertson
www.manifestinvesting.com
I look forward to the dialogue amongst objective participants and Investment
Club folks.

I am all but certain that there is a place for options in legitimate
investing. Let's continue the discussion.

Best Regards,

Leo

-----Original Message-----
From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Robertson
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:53 PM
To: club_cafe@bivio.com
Subject: club_cafe: Re: Options Trading

>Our reason is the clubs are as they are named "Investment" Clubs. The
purpose is investing, not shooting craps.

I agree.

And therein lies the mystery to me: "Can *investing* be done using options
in a disciplined approach that could lead to incrementally higher returns?"

"Is it possible that options could be used in a conservative implementation
for purposes of capital preservation or income generation?"

I think the truth lies between Peter Lynch's, "I can't even spell
o-p-t-i-o-n-s ..." and something resembling day trading.

If there's incremental potential, our Community could be very well-served by
exploring and *understanding* what is possible.


Best wishes and Better Investing,

Mark Robertson
www.manifestinvesting.com

Right or wrong, I was just conveying our club's policy on options & short sales.

Actually Arthur, you were conveying your club's position AND your own opinion, both of which are very welcome here.
The problem is, there are many avenues with regard to investing
that many of us either don't understand, or are not advanced enough to grasp. We've been duly warned to watch out!
Just because we don't understand one aspect, doesn't mean it's not a viable and respectable option. We would all do well to keep an open mind.
From what I've read, there are many angles to options. Some are extremely risky and others are very safe. Covered calls, for instance, can be very conservative while offering a little boost to your portfolio. Education is the key. Hopefully, we'll all get better educated about options in the next month.
Lynn O.
Laurie Frederiksen wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on options trading.
>
> Is it something your club does? Is it something you'd have an interest
> in learning more about?
>
> Laurie Frederiksen

Laurie,

Our club the International Gang Investment Club has been
using options now for over 4 years, we started first with
selling Covered Calls on all of our holdings instead of
using stop loss orders on our holdings which generally did
not protect us from loss, but assured a loss. Covered Calls
has been very profitable for us over the years.

We have experimented with mixture of good and bad results
with Open Calls on stocks where we expected positive
movement in the price within a year or two. Our results are
probably more negative than positive with this type option.

We are now using the sale of Open Puts to attempt to buy
stocks in the short term that we want to buy anyway. Selling
an open call, we always reserve that much cash in our
treasury in case the stock does get put to us at the strike
price.

Our club in now quite comfortable using options as part of
our investing style.

We use the CBOE web site for looking up lots of informaiton
on options.

Bob Atkinson
Thank you Bob and thank you for the reference to the CBOE (Chicago Board Options Exchange) site.
I just looked at it and I can see that I'd like to spend some more time there. There
is a lot of interesting information.

I found this statement you made very intriguing.

        "Our club the International Gang Investment Club has been
        using options now for over 4 years, we started first with
        selling Covered Calls on all of our holdings instead of
        using stop loss orders on our holdings which generally did
        not protect us from loss, but assured a loss."

I was just trying to decide yesterday whether to put in a stop loss for my Apple stock.

I hope everyone who has an interest in options takes advantage of
the opportunity to ask Mark Wolfinger questions. He answers options
questions in his Know Your Options column on our home page. You can email your question
to him by addressing it to know_your_options@bivio.com

It's also very interesting to read through past questions he's answered for people. You'll
find the list at: http://www.bivio.com/know_your_options/mail


Laurie Frederiksen
www.bivio.com
Rip West writes:
> Contrary to some posts on this subject, options do not have to be
> 'shooting craps'. Dealing with covered calls does not have to be
> overly speculative. On the other hand, I would be very interested to
> hear from people who use this technique if the results overcome the
> the commissions involved. Has your experience been good? And how about
> those cases where you wrote a call, and the underlying stock went up
> drastically. I know of one, in particular, dealing with Apple. Any
> more stories on that?

I'm sure Rip wants to hear my opinions on options. He views me as the fount of all knowledge on accounting, too. [ROFL]

I spent quite a bit of time selling covered calls. I used software to calculate the rate of return for different strikes. This allowed me to compare apples to apples. Here's an example from 2005 when I was futzing with this stuff:

BBY (55.66) calls for 03/18/2005 01/26/2005 17:53:33
StrikeSymbolLastVolumeReturnAnnualizedCovered
50.00BBYCJ.X6.50571.3910.1549.16
55.00BBYCK.X2.702693.5525.9252.96
60.00BBYCL.X0.658858.8564.6155.01
65.00BBYCM.X0.103716.84122.9355.56
70.00BBYCN.X0.05025.73187.8355.61
75.00BBYCO.X0.10034.81254.1155.56
80.00BBYCP.X0.05043.70319.0155.61

With this table, I could see what my "insured" value was. That's the "Covered" column. It tells me that if I sell a covered call at $50, the price can drop to $49.16 without me losing money (including commissions for the options and the underlying). Remember that the option is still valid at that point so you can't just sell the stock without being "naked". If the stock keeps on dropping, you can always buy back the call, but it will cost you some money. For example, it would have cost me $.65 per contract to buy back a $60 strike price even though stock was trading at $55.66 on that date.

I liked the idea of insuring my long positions. If the stock went down, I made money, because the option would expire worthless. The commissions were definitely covered by the gain. However, there's still a risk that the stock drops dramatically, but in that case, the market has probably collapsed and you are screwed even if you have an ordinary long position. The option buffers the loss a bit, but there's nothing you can do to stop the loss on the underlying itself.

Rip wanted to know what happens when the stock goes up. The answer is: I win! However, you have to have no regrets. In the above table, I could sell a call at $60 and make 8.85% absolute return (including commissions) if the stock hits $60 and the call is assigned. How this works is that I get the original $0.65 for selling the call, and I get the difference between the purchase price (Last trade $55.66) and the strike ($60 which is $3.34. This works out to a 64.61% annualized return. There's a big caveat here, explained below.

However, if the stock goes up to $65 I "lose" the extra $5. The call buyer gets that premium, and more power to her, because she risked way more than I did. She made a fabulous return, for the incredible risk she took. It's like buying a lottery ticket for $.65 and hoping (that's all you can do), you win, that is, the stock goes up before the option expires worthless. If the price doesn't go up, you lose all your money. That's a risk I'm not particularly interested in taking, and I'm always amazed that there are people out there willing to take that particular risk. Good luck!

There are a couple of caveats to this strategy. For example, you need to have some open interest, or you aren't going to be able to sell the call at the price of the Last trade in this table. That's important, because if you can't buy at that price, you aren't going to make the return calculated in the table if the stock goes up. You'll have to buy at another price, which may not be nearly as favorable. For example, there's no way you are going to get a 187% annualized return for selling a $70 call at $0.05. It ain't gonna happen, and so you shouldn't even try. There was no Volume on the option, and the open interest is likely to be too low.

The bigger caveat is that the Annualized return figure assumes that you are fully invested and that the underlying hits the strike price. To answer Rip's question again, if the stocks are going up very rapidly, this is a profitable strategy, then again, if the stocks are going up, you don't need to be selling covered calls. You are going to be very rich, because your crystal ball is perfectly accurate.

As we know, nobody can predict which way a stock will move so the theory of covered calls was invented to help people insure their positions. When you buy insurance, you are giving away money to reduce your risk. With covered calls, you are also locking yourself into a position and limiting your upside while reducing but not eliminating the risk on the downside. It's a tricky business, which requires incredibly rational behavior. You can't be married to stocks. You almost certainly need software to help you out, because the margins are very small.

I stopped options trading in 2005. I figured out that my time was better spent writing software, because I have more fun programming than calculating returns on options. That's obviously a personal decision about how you spend your time.

If you do trade options, please read Mark Wolfinger's column Know Your Options. I read his book, too (see his bio next to his column), and found it very clear and straightforward. He is happy to answer questions about options trading, and I don't think I've met anyone more knowledgeable about how options work.

Cheers,
Disclaimer: statements are opinions expressed by me These statements are not intended to replace professional advice. When in doubt, follow the advice of your investment, tax or legal advisors who are familiar with your particular circumstances.
Options and short sales involve risk and are not suitable for all investors. You can sustain losses in excess of your invested capital when trading options or short sales. All investment club members should understand the risks of any form of trading or investing. To learn about options, we recommend visiting the Options Learning Center at the CBOE. To learn about stocks, please visit the Investor Education area of the NASD.