All --

I've built the framework for a spreadsheet that will
calculate your club's price and record transactions, and
it's totally free.

Currently I've built a query to auto-update stock prices
from the internet if a user is connected, or the prices can
be manually entered.

Before 1/1/2002 I will have everything in easy-to-use forms,
so that you can click a button and a small form will appear
for you to enter buys, sells, dividends, payouts,
contributions, new members, etc. This will all be in an
embedded database within the spreadsheet. It will also
record all of these events into various logs so that your
taxes will be easy to assemble.

If you're interested to saving yourself the annual fee that
Bivio will be charging effective next year, e-mail me and
I'll be glad to send you what I've done so far.
Additionally, your suggestions can make this spreadsheet a
simple and free solution to using Bivio.

Eventually we could even build free website at Yahoo! to
take user feedback and comments, and build a free investment
club community. As a group our investment clubs can
collectively provide Bivio's services free of charge. As a
former financial advisor I assure you that running/managing
the books of an investment club are extremely simple, and my
spreadsheet is the first step.

If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet send me an e-mail.

tedmetro@yahoo.com

Chris Washburn
treasurer/founder
F-Tech Investment Club

Hi Chris,
Sounds like you are a resourceful guy with lots of free time
on your hands these days. Your idea is probably a lot like
the guys who founded bivio's original thinking. Creating an
alternative. I commend you for your effort, but I wonder how
far out you've thought about supporting your spreadsheet?
Bivio's had numerous calls on mergers, splits, stock and
cash splits, buy-outs, odd dividends.... you get the idea.
Bivio spends a good deal of their time keeping the product
current on tax changes and market changes. And getting the
year-end taxes printed is a breeze here. How will you handle
that?
I, as a club treasurer, would have reservations about
putting our books into something like this - what if you get
something else to do? will I have to move back to bivio or
somewhere else in the future? will I be able to import the
numbers or have to re-enter all my clubs data? Those are
some of the same questions clubs had of bivio when it
started up, and similar questions now that the fee is added.
Personally, and after seeing the "leaks" about pricing from
ICLUBcentral, I believe bivio's pricing, even without the
bivio bucks discount, is a great deal - both monetarily and
for the comfort factor of knowing someone is always watching
and updating the program as those changes in the laws occur.
Thanks anyway, and good luck.

Loretta

Chris Washburn wrote:
> All --
>
> I've built the framework for a spreadsheet that will
> calculate your club's price and record transactions, and
> it's totally free.
>
> Currently I've built a query to auto-update stock prices
> from the internet if a user is connected, or the prices can
> be manually entered.
>
> Before 1/1/2002 I will have everything in easy-to-use forms,
> so that you can click a button and a small form will appear
> for you to enter buys, sells, dividends, payouts,
> contributions, new members, etc. This will all be in an
> embedded database within the spreadsheet. It will also
> record all of these events into various logs so that your
> taxes will be easy to assemble.
>
> If you're interested to saving yourself the annual fee that
> Bivio will be charging effective next year, e-mail me and
> I'll be glad to send you what I've done so far.
> Additionally, your suggestions can make this spreadsheet a
> simple and free solution to using Bivio.
>
> Eventually we could even build free website at Yahoo! to
> take user feedback and comments, and build a free investment
> club community. As a group our investment clubs can
> collectively provide Bivio's services free of charge. As a
> former financial advisor I assure you that running/managing
> the books of an investment club are extremely simple, and my
> spreadsheet is the first step.
>
> If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet send me an e-mail.
>
> tedmetro@yahoo.com
>
> Chris Washburn
> treasurer/founder
> F-Tech Investment Club

Loretta --

You have not understood what my spreadsheet is. You bring
up some great points, and areas in which Bivio can help, but
areas which I do not try and tackle.

First of all there will never have to be updates to my
spreadsheet because it will do all of the accounting, and
the formulas won't change. Any modifications would simply
be making the interface easier and easier to use. Because
my spreadsheet is simply for accounting I never intended it
to be able to calculate mergers, spin-offs, cash
distributions, etc. It will account for them but they will
have to be entered manually. This is not difficult however,
because when a merger is completed you would simply have to
look at your brokerage statement and see how many shares of
the new stock you have and then enter this into the
spreadsheet, while at the same time removing the former
stock from the spreadsheet.

Additionally, the spreadsheet won't do anything regarding
the taxes, so there won't be any worries about updating the
sheet around the tax laws. Doing taxes for an investment
club is much more mundane and simple than most people want
you to believe. Very few tax laws apply to clubs, and the
most notable is the capital gain tax laws which are widely
distributed, covered, and addressed.

My intent is to simply provide a solution to clubs who want
to do a modicum of manual input into a spreadsheet in order
to save themselves the cost of Bivio's services. After all,
many clubs have switched from Ameritrade to Buy & Hold to
save themselves $4 or $5 per month, so why wouldn't they
want to save $60 a year doing simple data entry into a
spreadsheet?

Chris




Loretta Lombard wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> Sounds like you are a resourceful guy with lots of free time
> on your hands these days. Your idea is probably a lot like
> the guys who founded bivio's original thinking. Creating an
> alternative. I commend you for your effort, but I wonder how
> far out you've thought about supporting your spreadsheet?
> Bivio's had numerous calls on mergers, splits, stock and
> cash splits, buy-outs, odd dividends.... you get the idea.
> Bivio spends a good deal of their time keeping the product
> current on tax changes and market changes. And getting the
> year-end taxes printed is a breeze here. How will you handle
> that?
> I, as a club treasurer, would have reservations about
> putting our books into something like this - what if you get
> something else to do? will I have to move back to bivio or
> somewhere else in the future? will I be able to import the
> numbers or have to re-enter all my clubs data? Those are
> some of the same questions clubs had of bivio when it
> started up, and similar questions now that the fee is added.
> Personally, and after seeing the "leaks" about pricing from
> ICLUBcentral, I believe bivio's pricing, even without the
> bivio bucks discount, is a great deal - both monetarily and
> for the comfort factor of knowing someone is always watching
> and updating the program as those changes in the laws occur.
> Thanks anyway, and good luck.
>
> Loretta
>
> Chris Washburn wrote:
> > All --
> >
> > I've built the framework for a spreadsheet that will
> > calculate your club's price and record transactions, and
> > it's totally free.
> >
> > Currently I've built a query to auto-update stock prices
> > from the internet if a user is connected, or the prices can
> > be manually entered.
> >
> > Before 1/1/2002 I will have everything in easy-to-use forms,
> > so that you can click a button and a small form will appear
> > for you to enter buys, sells, dividends, payouts,
> > contributions, new members, etc. This will all be in an
> > embedded database within the spreadsheet. It will also
> > record all of these events into various logs so that your
> > taxes will be easy to assemble.
> >
> > If you're interested to saving yourself the annual fee that
> > Bivio will be charging effective next year, e-mail me and
> > I'll be glad to send you what I've done so far.
> > Additionally, your suggestions can make this spreadsheet a
> > simple and free solution to using Bivio.
> >
> > Eventually we could even build free website at Yahoo! to
> > take user feedback and comments, and build a free investment
> > club community. As a group our investment clubs can
> > collectively provide Bivio's services free of charge. As a
> > former financial advisor I assure you that running/managing
> > the books of an investment club are extremely simple, and my
> > spreadsheet is the first step.
> >
> > If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet send me an e-mail.
> >
> > tedmetro@yahoo.com
> >
> > Chris Washburn
> > treasurer/founder
> > F-Tech Investment Club

> have to be entered manually. This is not difficult however,
> because when a merger is completed you would simply have to
> look at your brokerage statement and see how many shares of
> the new stock you have and then enter this into the
> spreadsheet, while at the same time removing the former
> stock from the spreadsheet.

This is not correct. You need to manage the cost basis of the
spun-off and parent companies. Mergers are simpler, unless there is a
cash/stock split.

The spreadsheet must also handle member value and cost basis
correctly.

Cost basis is a tricky issue. It took us a while to get it right.
NCA 1.x never got it right. I don't know if NCA 2.x is right or not.

You would be surprised at the number of clubs which 1) never file an
IRS or state return, and 2) which file incorrect returns. Calculating
correct cost basis is very important if you want to achieve (2).

Rob

Chris...

The following is not meant to denigrate your efforts, but accounting is more
than recording the cash transactions. Among many other features, it
includes correctly allocating income and losses on an individual and time
dependent basis, determining the appropriate capital gain holding periods
and allocating accordingly, tracking the merger/split/spin-off data,
determining the cost basis for each company and correctly determining and
reporting to the 1065/K-1 tax criteria. Of particular concern is your
statement that filing the tax forms is simpler than most people want you to
believe... that depends on the method chosen to allocate income and
expenses. It can be very complex and tedious.

Why would a club not want to "save" the expense of having professionally
designed and maintained software?

One reason is lawsuits from partners and the potential for erroneous tax
filings due to spreadsheet errors. We're not professional accountants, we
are doctors, lawyers, scientists, tellers, auto mechanics, teachers, deli
clerks and homemakers and lack the professional judgment to know when we
make an accounting error.

A second reason is that our time is valuable to us. I've done 1065/K-1s by
hand and it's not fun. It takes time and care to get it right, and I have
better things to do with my Saturday afternoon than save $60 for the club
than by filling out IRS forms by hand.

A third reason is data integrity. In my years of using spreadsheets, I've
seen many errors propagated through improper use of spreadsheets. Their
format does not adequately protect the integrity of the data. The only way
this data should be managed is through a database.

A fourth reason is support. As you note, "...the spreadsheet won't do
anything regarding the taxes..." So where do we go if we need help doing
the taxes? Is your spreadsheet able to export into alternative software
such as bivio or IClubCentral's desktop or on-line products? Where would
someone go if they find the spreadsheet model is inadequate to meet their
needs?

I appreciate your efforts, but my club needs to have confidence in the
accounting system, and without professional development to provide assurance
that the spreadsheet model works, without support, without the tax reporting
and without the data integrity, I would be doing my club a disservice by not
selecting bivio or NAIC's vendor.

John Munn





----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:26 PM
Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio


> Loretta --
>
> You have not understood what my spreadsheet is. You bring
> up some great points, and areas in which Bivio can help, but
> areas which I do not try and tackle.
>
> First of all there will never have to be updates to my
> spreadsheet because it will do all of the accounting, and
> the formulas won't change. Any modifications would simply
> be making the interface easier and easier to use. Because
> my spreadsheet is simply for accounting I never intended it
> to be able to calculate mergers, spin-offs, cash
> distributions, etc. It will account for them but they will
> have to be entered manually. This is not difficult however,
> because when a merger is completed you would simply have to
> look at your brokerage statement and see how many shares of
> the new stock you have and then enter this into the
> spreadsheet, while at the same time removing the former
> stock from the spreadsheet.
>
> Additionally, the spreadsheet won't do anything regarding
> the taxes, so there won't be any worries about updating the
> sheet around the tax laws. Doing taxes for an investment
> club is much more mundane and simple than most people want
> you to believe. Very few tax laws apply to clubs, and the
> most notable is the capital gain tax laws which are widely
> distributed, covered, and addressed.
>
> My intent is to simply provide a solution to clubs who want
> to do a modicum of manual input into a spreadsheet in order
> to save themselves the cost of Bivio's services. After all,
> many clubs have switched from Ameritrade to Buy & Hold to
> save themselves $4 or $5 per month, so why wouldn't they
> want to save $60 a year doing simple data entry into a
> spreadsheet?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Loretta Lombard wrote:
> > Hi Chris,
> > Sounds like you are a resourceful guy with lots of free time
> > on your hands these days. Your idea is probably a lot like
> > the guys who founded bivio's original thinking. Creating an
> > alternative. I commend you for your effort, but I wonder how
> > far out you've thought about supporting your spreadsheet?
> > Bivio's had numerous calls on mergers, splits, stock and
> > cash splits, buy-outs, odd dividends.... you get the idea.
> > Bivio spends a good deal of their time keeping the product
> > current on tax changes and market changes. And getting the
> > year-end taxes printed is a breeze here. How will you handle
> > that?
> > I, as a club treasurer, would have reservations about
> > putting our books into something like this - what if you get
> > something else to do? will I have to move back to bivio or
> > somewhere else in the future? will I be able to import the
> > numbers or have to re-enter all my clubs data? Those are
> > some of the same questions clubs had of bivio when it
> > started up, and similar questions now that the fee is added.
> > Personally, and after seeing the "leaks" about pricing from
> > ICLUBcentral, I believe bivio's pricing, even without the
> > bivio bucks discount, is a great deal - both monetarily and
> > for the comfort factor of knowing someone is always watching
> > and updating the program as those changes in the laws occur.
> > Thanks anyway, and good luck.
> >
> > Loretta
> >
> > Chris Washburn wrote:
> > > All --
> > >
> > > I've built the framework for a spreadsheet that will
> > > calculate your club's price and record transactions, and
> > > it's totally free.
> > >
> > > Currently I've built a query to auto-update stock prices
> > > from the internet if a user is connected, or the prices can
> > > be manually entered.
> > >
> > > Before 1/1/2002 I will have everything in easy-to-use forms,
> > > so that you can click a button and a small form will appear
> > > for you to enter buys, sells, dividends, payouts,
> > > contributions, new members, etc. This will all be in an
> > > embedded database within the spreadsheet. It will also
> > > record all of these events into various logs so that your
> > > taxes will be easy to assemble.
> > >
> > > If you're interested to saving yourself the annual fee that
> > > Bivio will be charging effective next year, e-mail me and
> > > I'll be glad to send you what I've done so far.
> > > Additionally, your suggestions can make this spreadsheet a
> > > simple and free solution to using Bivio.
> > >
> > > Eventually we could even build free website at Yahoo! to
> > > take user feedback and comments, and build a free investment
> > > club community. As a group our investment clubs can
> > > collectively provide Bivio's services free of charge. As a
> > > former financial advisor I assure you that running/managing
> > > the books of an investment club are extremely simple, and my
> > > spreadsheet is the first step.
> > >
> > > If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet send me an e-mail.
> > >
> > > tedmetro@yahoo.com
> > >
> > > Chris Washburn
> > > treasurer/founder
> > > F-Tech Investment Club
>

John -

What I find most disturbing is your subtle assertion that an
investment club cannot easily manage and maintain the
accounts of an investment club. Let me assure you that long
before Bivio ever existed, long before computers there were
investment clubs that did everything by hand, that did taxes
theirselves...and they flourished. Your statements are
nothing more than misinformation, folly, and rhetoric aimed
at scaring investors into using Bivio's service, when all
they need is a spreadsheet.

A spreadsheet is only as inaccurate as the formulas, once
those are in place there can be no spreadsheet errors as you
mentioned. Data integrity is not an issue, and I wonder why
you even mention it. It makes me wonder if you aren't more
for putting money in Bivio's accounts, than you are for the
individual investor.

Finally, you make calculating the cost basis of a stock and
tracking a stock merger as complicated, issues. It is
elementary math and I assume most people in an investment
club can calculate their own personal Schedule-D capital
gains reports. Filing taxes for an investment club is no
more difficult.

My particular concern is that you seem to trying to persuade
people to use Bivio. You may like Bivio for its
convenience, but the truth is that you are paying $59 for
nothing more than convenience. Spending a little amount of
time can save a club from spending that money, yet you
cavalierly dismiss the notion that people can easily do what
Bivio does on their own.

Chris


John R. Munn wrote:
> Chris...
>
> The following is not meant to denigrate your efforts, but accounting is more
> than recording the cash transactions. Among many other features, it
> includes correctly allocating income and losses on an individual and time
> dependent basis, determining the appropriate capital gain holding periods
> and allocating accordingly, tracking the merger/split/spin-off data,
> determining the cost basis for each company and correctly determining and
> reporting to the 1065/K-1 tax criteria. Of particular concern is your
> statement that filing the tax forms is simpler than most people want you to
> believe... that depends on the method chosen to allocate income and
> expenses. It can be very complex and tedious.
>
> Why would a club not want to "save" the expense of having professionally
> designed and maintained software?
>
> One reason is lawsuits from partners and the potential for erroneous tax
> filings due to spreadsheet errors. We're not professional accountants, we
> are doctors, lawyers, scientists, tellers, auto mechanics, teachers, deli
> clerks and homemakers and lack the professional judgment to know when we
> make an accounting error.
>
> A second reason is that our time is valuable to us. I've done 1065/K-1s by
> hand and it's not fun. It takes time and care to get it right, and I have
> better things to do with my Saturday afternoon than save $60 for the club
> than by filling out IRS forms by hand.
>
> A third reason is data integrity. In my years of using spreadsheets, I've
> seen many errors propagated through improper use of spreadsheets. Their
> format does not adequately protect the integrity of the data. The only way
> this data should be managed is through a database.
>
> A fourth reason is support. As you note, "...the spreadsheet won't do
> anything regarding the taxes..." So where do we go if we need help doing
> the taxes? Is your spreadsheet able to export into alternative software
> such as bivio or IClubCentral's desktop or on-line products? Where would
> someone go if they find the spreadsheet model is inadequate to meet their
> needs?
>
> I appreciate your efforts, but my club needs to have confidence in the
> accounting system, and without professional development to provide assurance
> that the spreadsheet model works, without support, without the tax reporting
> and without the data integrity, I would be doing my club a disservice by not
> selecting bivio or NAIC's vendor.
>
> John Munn
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
> To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:26 PM
> Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio
>
>
> > Loretta --
> >
> > You have not understood what my spreadsheet is. You bring
> > up some great points, and areas in which Bivio can help, but
> > areas which I do not try and tackle.
> >
> > First of all there will never have to be updates to my
> > spreadsheet because it will do all of the accounting, and
> > the formulas won't change. Any modifications would simply
> > be making the interface easier and easier to use. Because
> > my spreadsheet is simply for accounting I never intended it
> > to be able to calculate mergers, spin-offs, cash
> > distributions, etc. It will account for them but they will
> > have to be entered manually. This is not difficult however,
> > because when a merger is completed you would simply have to
> > look at your brokerage statement and see how many shares of
> > the new stock you have and then enter this into the
> > spreadsheet, while at the same time removing the former
> > stock from the spreadsheet.
> >
> > Additionally, the spreadsheet won't do anything regarding
> > the taxes, so there won't be any worries about updating the
> > sheet around the tax laws. Doing taxes for an investment
> > club is much more mundane and simple than most people want
> > you to believe. Very few tax laws apply to clubs, and the
> > most notable is the capital gain tax laws which are widely
> > distributed, covered, and addressed.
> >
> > My intent is to simply provide a solution to clubs who want
> > to do a modicum of manual input into a spreadsheet in order
> > to save themselves the cost of Bivio's services. After all,
> > many clubs have switched from Ameritrade to Buy & Hold to
> > save themselves $4 or $5 per month, so why wouldn't they
> > want to save $60 a year doing simple data entry into a
> > spreadsheet?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Loretta Lombard wrote:
> > > Hi Chris,
> > > Sounds like you are a resourceful guy with lots of free time
> > > on your hands these days. Your idea is probably a lot like
> > > the guys who founded bivio's original thinking. Creating an
> > > alternative. I commend you for your effort, but I wonder how
> > > far out you've thought about supporting your spreadsheet?
> > > Bivio's had numerous calls on mergers, splits, stock and
> > > cash splits, buy-outs, odd dividends.... you get the idea.
> > > Bivio spends a good deal of their time keeping the product
> > > current on tax changes and market changes. And getting the
> > > year-end taxes printed is a breeze here. How will you handle
> > > that?
> > > I, as a club treasurer, would have reservations about
> > > putting our books into something like this - what if you get
> > > something else to do? will I have to move back to bivio or
> > > somewhere else in the future? will I be able to import the
> > > numbers or have to re-enter all my clubs data? Those are
> > > some of the same questions clubs had of bivio when it
> > > started up, and similar questions now that the fee is added.
> > > Personally, and after seeing the "leaks" about pricing from
> > > ICLUBcentral, I believe bivio's pricing, even without the
> > > bivio bucks discount, is a great deal - both monetarily and
> > > for the comfort factor of knowing someone is always watching
> > > and updating the program as those changes in the laws occur.
> > > Thanks anyway, and good luck.
> > >
> > > Loretta
> > >
> > > Chris Washburn wrote:
> > > > All --
> > > >
> > > > I've built the framework for a spreadsheet that will
> > > > calculate your club's price and record transactions, and
> > > > it's totally free.
> > > >
> > > > Currently I've built a query to auto-update stock prices
> > > > from the internet if a user is connected, or the prices can
> > > > be manually entered.
> > > >
> > > > Before 1/1/2002 I will have everything in easy-to-use forms,
> > > > so that you can click a button and a small form will appear
> > > > for you to enter buys, sells, dividends, payouts,
> > > > contributions, new members, etc. This will all be in an
> > > > embedded database within the spreadsheet. It will also
> > > > record all of these events into various logs so that your
> > > > taxes will be easy to assemble.
> > > >
> > > > If you're interested to saving yourself the annual fee that
> > > > Bivio will be charging effective next year, e-mail me and
> > > > I'll be glad to send you what I've done so far.
> > > > Additionally, your suggestions can make this spreadsheet a
> > > > simple and free solution to using Bivio.
> > > >
> > > > Eventually we could even build free website at Yahoo! to
> > > > take user feedback and comments, and build a free investment
> > > > club community. As a group our investment clubs can
> > > > collectively provide Bivio's services free of charge. As a
> > > > former financial advisor I assure you that running/managing
> > > > the books of an investment club are extremely simple, and my
> > > > spreadsheet is the first step.
> > > >
> > > > If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet send me an e-mail.
> > > >
> > > > tedmetro@yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > > Chris Washburn
> > > > treasurer/founder
> > > > F-Tech Investment Club
> >

Chris...

For many years I did bookkeeping by hand for a small S-corporation and by
hand and with software for a non profit. For both, the taxes were done by
hand. I have worked for H&R Block and have been a club treasurer for one
club since 1998 and another on and off since 1997. I speak from experience,
not from vested interest.

I would not use a spreadsheet for accounting because the structure of a
spreadsheet is static... it's structure is fixed. But a club's data is
dynamic in that tax laws change and occasionally the rules change. Its use
is not difficult for some people, but for many others it will be an
insurmountable challenge.

I'm not trying to get people to use bivio any more than I would persuade
people to use IClubCentral's products. I have a choice. My preference is a
computer based model through either of those two vendors, followed by NAIC's
paper approach (they sell a kit for recording the transactions) and my last
choice would be a home built spreadsheet.

I have no axe to grind and no motives other than providing my opinion formed
through years of experience with accounting, tax reporting, spreadsheets,
databases, canned software such as Quicken and QuickBooks, and NAIC's
accounting products. I have no vested interest in bivio and I've been a
long time critic of NAIC's accounting product. My own clubs both currently
use NAIC's Club Accounting v. 1.04 and one club is also using bivio. We
have not yet made a decision how to proceed to meet our accounting/tax
reporting needs. But as treasurer of two clubs, I can tell you that I would
resign not just as treasurer, but from both partnerships if they were to use
a system you describe.

John Munn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:14 PM
Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio


> John -
>
> What I find most disturbing is your subtle assertion that an
> investment club cannot easily manage and maintain the
> accounts of an investment club. Let me assure you that long
> before Bivio ever existed, long before computers there were
> investment clubs that did everything by hand, that did taxes
> theirselves...and they flourished. Your statements are
> nothing more than misinformation, folly, and rhetoric aimed
> at scaring investors into using Bivio's service, when all
> they need is a spreadsheet.
>
> A spreadsheet is only as inaccurate as the formulas, once
> those are in place there can be no spreadsheet errors as you
> mentioned. Data integrity is not an issue, and I wonder why
> you even mention it. It makes me wonder if you aren't more
> for putting money in Bivio's accounts, than you are for the
> individual investor.
>
> Finally, you make calculating the cost basis of a stock and
> tracking a stock merger as complicated, issues. It is
> elementary math and I assume most people in an investment
> club can calculate their own personal Schedule-D capital
> gains reports. Filing taxes for an investment club is no
> more difficult.
>
> My particular concern is that you seem to trying to persuade
> people to use Bivio. You may like Bivio for its
> convenience, but the truth is that you are paying $59 for
> nothing more than convenience. Spending a little amount of
> time can save a club from spending that money, yet you
> cavalierly dismiss the notion that people can easily do what
> Bivio does on their own.
>
> Chris
>
>
> John R. Munn wrote:
> > Chris...
> >
> > The following is not meant to denigrate your efforts, but accounting is
more
> > than recording the cash transactions. Among many other features, it
> > includes correctly allocating income and losses on an individual and
time
> > dependent basis, determining the appropriate capital gain holding
periods
> > and allocating accordingly, tracking the merger/split/spin-off data,
> > determining the cost basis for each company and correctly determining
and
> > reporting to the 1065/K-1 tax criteria. Of particular concern is your
> > statement that filing the tax forms is simpler than most people want you
to
> > believe... that depends on the method chosen to allocate income and
> > expenses. It can be very complex and tedious.
> >
> > Why would a club not want to "save" the expense of having professionally
> > designed and maintained software?
> >
> > One reason is lawsuits from partners and the potential for erroneous tax
> > filings due to spreadsheet errors. We're not professional accountants,
we
> > are doctors, lawyers, scientists, tellers, auto mechanics, teachers,
deli
> > clerks and homemakers and lack the professional judgment to know when we
> > make an accounting error.
> >
> > A second reason is that our time is valuable to us. I've done 1065/K-1s
by
> > hand and it's not fun. It takes time and care to get it right, and I
have
> > better things to do with my Saturday afternoon than save $60 for the
club
> > than by filling out IRS forms by hand.
> >
> > A third reason is data integrity. In my years of using spreadsheets,
I've
> > seen many errors propagated through improper use of spreadsheets. Their
> > format does not adequately protect the integrity of the data. The only
way
> > this data should be managed is through a database.
> >
> > A fourth reason is support. As you note, "...the spreadsheet won't do
> > anything regarding the taxes..." So where do we go if we need help
doing
> > the taxes? Is your spreadsheet able to export into alternative software
> > such as bivio or IClubCentral's desktop or on-line products? Where
would
> > someone go if they find the spreadsheet model is inadequate to meet
their
> > needs?
> >
> > I appreciate your efforts, but my club needs to have confidence in the
> > accounting system, and without professional development to provide
assurance
> > that the spreadsheet model works, without support, without the tax
reporting
> > and without the data integrity, I would be doing my club a disservice by
not
> > selecting bivio or NAIC's vendor.
> >
> > John Munn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
> > To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:26 PM
> > Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio
> >
> >
> > > Loretta --
> > >
> > > You have not understood what my spreadsheet is. You bring
> > > up some great points, and areas in which Bivio can help, but
> > > areas which I do not try and tackle.
> > >
> > > First of all there will never have to be updates to my
> > > spreadsheet because it will do all of the accounting, and
> > > the formulas won't change. Any modifications would simply
> > > be making the interface easier and easier to use. Because
> > > my spreadsheet is simply for accounting I never intended it
> > > to be able to calculate mergers, spin-offs, cash
> > > distributions, etc. It will account for them but they will
> > > have to be entered manually. This is not difficult however,
> > > because when a merger is completed you would simply have to
> > > look at your brokerage statement and see how many shares of
> > > the new stock you have and then enter this into the
> > > spreadsheet, while at the same time removing the former
> > > stock from the spreadsheet.
> > >
> > > Additionally, the spreadsheet won't do anything regarding
> > > the taxes, so there won't be any worries about updating the
> > > sheet around the tax laws. Doing taxes for an investment
> > > club is much more mundane and simple than most people want
> > > you to believe. Very few tax laws apply to clubs, and the
> > > most notable is the capital gain tax laws which are widely
> > > distributed, covered, and addressed.
> > >
> > > My intent is to simply provide a solution to clubs who want
> > > to do a modicum of manual input into a spreadsheet in order
> > > to save themselves the cost of Bivio's services. After all,
> > > many clubs have switched from Ameritrade to Buy & Hold to
> > > save themselves $4 or $5 per month, so why wouldn't they
> > > want to save $60 a year doing simple data entry into a
> > > spreadsheet?
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loretta Lombard wrote:
> > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > Sounds like you are a resourceful guy with lots of free time
> > > > on your hands these days. Your idea is probably a lot like
> > > > the guys who founded bivio's original thinking. Creating an
> > > > alternative. I commend you for your effort, but I wonder how
> > > > far out you've thought about supporting your spreadsheet?
> > > > Bivio's had numerous calls on mergers, splits, stock and
> > > > cash splits, buy-outs, odd dividends.... you get the idea.
> > > > Bivio spends a good deal of their time keeping the product
> > > > current on tax changes and market changes. And getting the
> > > > year-end taxes printed is a breeze here. How will you handle
> > > > that?
> > > > I, as a club treasurer, would have reservations about
> > > > putting our books into something like this - what if you get
> > > > something else to do? will I have to move back to bivio or
> > > > somewhere else in the future? will I be able to import the
> > > > numbers or have to re-enter all my clubs data? Those are
> > > > some of the same questions clubs had of bivio when it
> > > > started up, and similar questions now that the fee is added.
> > > > Personally, and after seeing the "leaks" about pricing from
> > > > ICLUBcentral, I believe bivio's pricing, even without the
> > > > bivio bucks discount, is a great deal - both monetarily and
> > > > for the comfort factor of knowing someone is always watching
> > > > and updating the program as those changes in the laws occur.
> > > > Thanks anyway, and good luck.
> > > >
> > > > Loretta
> > > >
> > > > Chris Washburn wrote:
> > > > > All --
> > > > >
> > > > > I've built the framework for a spreadsheet that will
> > > > > calculate your club's price and record transactions, and
> > > > > it's totally free.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently I've built a query to auto-update stock prices
> > > > > from the internet if a user is connected, or the prices can
> > > > > be manually entered.
> > > > >
> > > > > Before 1/1/2002 I will have everything in easy-to-use forms,
> > > > > so that you can click a button and a small form will appear
> > > > > for you to enter buys, sells, dividends, payouts,
> > > > > contributions, new members, etc. This will all be in an
> > > > > embedded database within the spreadsheet. It will also
> > > > > record all of these events into various logs so that your
> > > > > taxes will be easy to assemble.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you're interested to saving yourself the annual fee that
> > > > > Bivio will be charging effective next year, e-mail me and
> > > > > I'll be glad to send you what I've done so far.
> > > > > Additionally, your suggestions can make this spreadsheet a
> > > > > simple and free solution to using Bivio.
> > > > >
> > > > > Eventually we could even build free website at Yahoo! to
> > > > > take user feedback and comments, and build a free investment
> > > > > club community. As a group our investment clubs can
> > > > > collectively provide Bivio's services free of charge. As a
> > > > > former financial advisor I assure you that running/managing
> > > > > the books of an investment club are extremely simple, and my
> > > > > spreadsheet is the first step.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet send me an e-mail.
> > > > >
> > > > > tedmetro@yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris Washburn
> > > > > treasurer/founder
> > > > > F-Tech Investment Club
> > >

John,

I am sure that you are very qualified and intelligent, but I
still want you to tell me how clubs managed before NAIC
software and/or Bivio.

Long before spreadsheets, people used paper and pen
successfully to do accounting for investment clubs. In fact
people have used spreadsheets longer than they have used
software on computers. So how did people manage in that
static, non-dynamic environment? You would have us believe
that using a spreadsheet is a terrible evil, but they have
been in use by investment clubs for decades (very
succesfully), where software is a relatively new
development.

I think we need to agree that we will never see eye-to-eye
on this subject, and put things to rest. If you feel
comfortable spending money on Bivio's services, then that is
certainly your prerogative.

Take care and may your investments be successful,

Chris


John R. Munn wrote:
> Chris...
>
> For many years I did bookkeeping by hand for a small S-corporation and by
> hand and with software for a non profit. For both, the taxes were done by
> hand. I have worked for H&R Block and have been a club treasurer for one
> club since 1998 and another on and off since 1997. I speak from experience,
> not from vested interest.
>
> I would not use a spreadsheet for accounting because the structure of a
> spreadsheet is static... it's structure is fixed. But a club's data is
> dynamic in that tax laws change and occasionally the rules change. Its use
> is not difficult for some people, but for many others it will be an
> insurmountable challenge.
>
> I'm not trying to get people to use bivio any more than I would persuade
> people to use IClubCentral's products. I have a choice. My preference is a
> computer based model through either of those two vendors, followed by NAIC's
> paper approach (they sell a kit for recording the transactions) and my last
> choice would be a home built spreadsheet.
>
> I have no axe to grind and no motives other than providing my opinion formed
> through years of experience with accounting, tax reporting, spreadsheets,
> databases, canned software such as Quicken and QuickBooks, and NAIC's
> accounting products. I have no vested interest in bivio and I've been a
> long time critic of NAIC's accounting product. My own clubs both currently
> use NAIC's Club Accounting v. 1.04 and one club is also using bivio. We
> have not yet made a decision how to proceed to meet our accounting/tax
> reporting needs. But as treasurer of two clubs, I can tell you that I would
> resign not just as treasurer, but from both partnerships if they were to use
> a system you describe.
>
> John Munn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
> To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:14 PM
> Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio
>
>
> > John -
> >
> > What I find most disturbing is your subtle assertion that an
> > investment club cannot easily manage and maintain the
> > accounts of an investment club. Let me assure you that long
> > before Bivio ever existed, long before computers there were
> > investment clubs that did everything by hand, that did taxes
> > theirselves...and they flourished. Your statements are
> > nothing more than misinformation, folly, and rhetoric aimed
> > at scaring investors into using Bivio's service, when all
> > they need is a spreadsheet.
> >
> > A spreadsheet is only as inaccurate as the formulas, once
> > those are in place there can be no spreadsheet errors as you
> > mentioned. Data integrity is not an issue, and I wonder why
> > you even mention it. It makes me wonder if you aren't more
> > for putting money in Bivio's accounts, than you are for the
> > individual investor.
> >
> > Finally, you make calculating the cost basis of a stock and
> > tracking a stock merger as complicated, issues. It is
> > elementary math and I assume most people in an investment
> > club can calculate their own personal Schedule-D capital
> > gains reports. Filing taxes for an investment club is no
> > more difficult.
> >
> > My particular concern is that you seem to trying to persuade
> > people to use Bivio. You may like Bivio for its
> > convenience, but the truth is that you are paying $59 for
> > nothing more than convenience. Spending a little amount of
> > time can save a club from spending that money, yet you
> > cavalierly dismiss the notion that people can easily do what
> > Bivio does on their own.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > John R. Munn wrote:
> > > Chris...
> > >
> > > The following is not meant to denigrate your efforts, but accounting is
> more
> > > than recording the cash transactions. Among many other features, it
> > > includes correctly allocating income and losses on an individual and
> time
> > > dependent basis, determining the appropriate capital gain holding
> periods
> > > and allocating accordingly, tracking the merger/split/spin-off data,
> > > determining the cost basis for each company and correctly determining
> and
> > > reporting to the 1065/K-1 tax criteria. Of particular concern is your
> > > statement that filing the tax forms is simpler than most people want you
> to
> > > believe... that depends on the method chosen to allocate income and
> > > expenses. It can be very complex and tedious.
> > >
> > > Why would a club not want to "save" the expense of having professionally
> > > designed and maintained software?
> > >
> > > One reason is lawsuits from partners and the potential for erroneous tax
> > > filings due to spreadsheet errors. We're not professional accountants,
> we
> > > are doctors, lawyers, scientists, tellers, auto mechanics, teachers,
> deli
> > > clerks and homemakers and lack the professional judgment to know when we
> > > make an accounting error.
> > >
> > > A second reason is that our time is valuable to us. I've done 1065/K-1s
> by
> > > hand and it's not fun. It takes time and care to get it right, and I
> have
> > > better things to do with my Saturday afternoon than save $60 for the
> club
> > > than by filling out IRS forms by hand.
> > >
> > > A third reason is data integrity. In my years of using spreadsheets,
> I've
> > > seen many errors propagated through improper use of spreadsheets. Their
> > > format does not adequately protect the integrity of the data. The only
> way
> > > this data should be managed is through a database.
> > >
> > > A fourth reason is support. As you note, "...the spreadsheet won't do
> > > anything regarding the taxes..." So where do we go if we need help
> doing
> > > the taxes? Is your spreadsheet able to export into alternative software
> > > such as bivio or IClubCentral's desktop or on-line products? Where
> would
> > > someone go if they find the spreadsheet model is inadequate to meet
> their
> > > needs?
> > >
> > > I appreciate your efforts, but my club needs to have confidence in the
> > > accounting system, and without professional development to provide
> assurance
> > > that the spreadsheet model works, without support, without the tax
> reporting
> > > and without the data integrity, I would be doing my club a disservice by
> not
> > > selecting bivio or NAIC's vendor.
> > >
> > > John Munn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
> > > To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:26 PM
> > > Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio
> > >
> > >
> > > > Loretta --
> > > >
> > > > You have not understood what my spreadsheet is. You bring
> > > > up some great points, and areas in which Bivio can help, but
> > > > areas which I do not try and tackle.
> > > >
> > > > First of all there will never have to be updates to my
> > > > spreadsheet because it will do all of the accounting, and
> > > > the formulas won't change. Any modifications would simply
> > > > be making the interface easier and easier to use. Because
> > > > my spreadsheet is simply for accounting I never intended it
> > > > to be able to calculate mergers, spin-offs, cash
> > > > distributions, etc. It will account for them but they will
> > > > have to be entered manually. This is not difficult however,
> > > > because when a merger is completed you would simply have to
> > > > look at your brokerage statement and see how many shares of
> > > > the new stock you have and then enter this into the
> > > > spreadsheet, while at the same time removing the former
> > > > stock from the spreadsheet.
> > > >
> > > > Additionally, the spreadsheet won't do anything regarding
> > > > the taxes, so there won't be any worries about updating the
> > > > sheet around the tax laws. Doing taxes for an investment
> > > > club is much more mundane and simple than most people want
> > > > you to believe. Very few tax laws apply to clubs, and the
> > > > most notable is the capital gain tax laws which are widely
> > > > distributed, covered, and addressed.
> > > >
> > > > My intent is to simply provide a solution to clubs who want
> > > > to do a modicum of manual input into a spreadsheet in order
> > > > to save themselves the cost of Bivio's services. After all,
> > > > many clubs have switched from Ameritrade to Buy & Hold to
> > > > save themselves $4 or $5 per month, so why wouldn't they
> > > > want to save $60 a year doing simple data entry into a
> > > > spreadsheet?
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Loretta Lombard wrote:
> > > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > > Sounds like you are a resourceful guy with lots of free time
> > > > > on your hands these days. Your idea is probably a lot like
> > > > > the guys who founded bivio's original thinking. Creating an
> > > > > alternative. I commend you for your effort, but I wonder how
> > > > > far out you've thought about supporting your spreadsheet?
> > > > > Bivio's had numerous calls on mergers, splits, stock and
> > > > > cash splits, buy-outs, odd dividends.... you get the idea.
> > > > > Bivio spends a good deal of their time keeping the product
> > > > > current on tax changes and market changes. And getting the
> > > > > year-end taxes printed is a breeze here. How will you handle
> > > > > that?
> > > > > I, as a club treasurer, would have reservations about
> > > > > putting our books into something like this - what if you get
> > > > > something else to do? will I have to move back to bivio or
> > > > > somewhere else in the future? will I be able to import the
> > > > > numbers or have to re-enter all my clubs data? Those are
> > > > > some of the same questions clubs had of bivio when it
> > > > > started up, and similar questions now that the fee is added.
> > > > > Personally, and after seeing the "leaks" about pricing from
> > > > > ICLUBcentral, I believe bivio's pricing, even without the
> > > > > bivio bucks discount, is a great deal - both monetarily and
> > > > > for the comfort factor of knowing someone is always watching
> > > > > and updating the program as those changes in the laws occur.
> > > > > Thanks anyway, and good luck.
> > > > >
> > > > > Loretta
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris Washburn wrote:
> > > > > > All --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've built the framework for a spreadsheet that will
> > > > > > calculate your club's price and record transactions, and
> > > > > > it's totally free.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Currently I've built a query to auto-update stock prices
> > > > > > from the internet if a user is connected, or the prices can
> > > > > > be manually entered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before 1/1/2002 I will have everything in easy-to-use forms,
> > > > > > so that you can click a button and a small form will appear
> > > > > > for you to enter buys, sells, dividends, payouts,
> > > > > > contributions, new members, etc. This will all be in an
> > > > > > embedded database within the spreadsheet. It will also
> > > > > > record all of these events into various logs so that your
> > > > > > taxes will be easy to assemble.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you're interested to saving yourself the annual fee that
> > > > > > Bivio will be charging effective next year, e-mail me and
> > > > > > I'll be glad to send you what I've done so far.
> > > > > > Additionally, your suggestions can make this spreadsheet a
> > > > > > simple and free solution to using Bivio.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eventually we could even build free website at Yahoo! to
> > > > > > take user feedback and comments, and build a free investment
> > > > > > club community. As a group our investment clubs can
> > > > > > collectively provide Bivio's services free of charge. As a
> > > > > > former financial advisor I assure you that running/managing
> > > > > > the books of an investment club are extremely simple, and my
> > > > > > spreadsheet is the first step.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet send me an e-mail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > tedmetro@yahoo.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris Washburn
> > > > > > treasurer/founder
> > > > > > F-Tech Investment Club
> > > >

One of my members brought up a good point while discussing Bivio and NOCA. When
Bivio started they advertised Free club accounting. When NOCA started they
advertised Free for a Limited time. He made the point that at least NOCA was
forthcoming and honest that there would be a charge in the future.

Now I agree that obviously nothing is free forever and that you would be naive
to think so... but hey when one advertises free and the other for a limited
time... where do you go??

Just thought that it was an interesting observation.

The decision continues...

Tim,
I believe the Bivio people had every intention of providing free accounting
paid for with advertising. However, just as discount brokers have had to
change fee structure because of the reduced trading during the market's
downfall (buyandhold and sharebuilder being two examples), it is
understandable that Bivio has to start charging.

The service remains good, support has been outstanding (and quick) during
the free times, and I would expect his service to remain very good, and,
with additions they frequently make to the site, expect it to continue to
improve.

There is still the manual by hand method. NAIC'a club accounting book and
forms are very good, but also very time consuming for a treasure. Therefore,
our club will happily pay for the services offered by Bivio.

It's my guess that Iclub would be happy to get your business if you feel
betrayed by Bivio, but I wouldn't count on getting it for as reasonable a
price as Bivio charges.

timk
sh_ic

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Chatterton" <timothy_chatterton@globalcrossing.com>
To: "The Club Cafe" <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 7:43 AM
Subject: club_cafe: One of my club members...


> One of my members brought up a good point while discussing Bivio and NOCA.
When
> Bivio started they advertised Free club accounting. When NOCA started they
> advertised Free for a Limited time. He made the point that at least NOCA
was
> forthcoming and honest that there would be a charge in the future.
>
> Now I agree that obviously nothing is free forever and that you would be
naive
> to think so... but hey when one advertises free and the other for a
limited
> time... where do you go??
>
> Just thought that it was an interesting observation.
>
> The decision continues...
>

C'mon Tim you have got to be kidding with this one (LOL).
You state "Now I agree that obviously nothing is free
forever and that you would be naive to think so.." and then
say, " when one advertises free and the other for a limited
time... where do you go??"

It appears to me (and only me) that you 'might' like to go
to NAIC/w NOCA, and thats cool. But PLEASE understand that
there is know great benefit in group stating, "Free for a
limited time only while our competitor is free".
Mann those guys ONLY stayed free as long as Bivio was free,
and as soon as they (Bivio) said a fee will be charged, NOCA
states "We will not charge until maybe June but we have no
idea what that charge will be, so come on over and let us
surpise you. Oh and by the way if you sign-out with us
today, (NOCA) we will throw in a tax reporting program for
$36-40". $36-40 for a TAX Reporting Program Only... Mann
like the guy from the TV show 20/20 says,"Give Me A Break".

Remember how we started this conversation "Who Will Care For
The Little Guy". At least Bivio is upfront with everything
right now for at least 2yrs (see and I didnt say anything
about Bivio **** program - LOL).



Timothy Chatterton wrote:
> One of my members brought up a good point while discussing Bivio and NOCA. When
> Bivio started they advertised Free club accounting. When NOCA started they
> advertised Free for a Limited time. He made the point that at least NOCA was
> forthcoming and honest that there would be a charge in the future.
>
> Now I agree that obviously nothing is free forever and that you would be naive
> to think so... but hey when one advertises free and the other for a limited
> time... where do you go??
>
> Just thought that it was an interesting observation.
>
> The decision continues...

Chris...

Before bivio and before NAIC's software was developed, the tasks were
performed by hand, most likely using tools similar to NAIC's manual (paper)
spreadsheet. The issue is that we've come to expect much more now in terms
of calculating the income and losses on a daily basis rather than on a
monthly, quarterly or annual basis.

And in many ways, this paper system is less prone to errors, because of its
simplicity, than the computer based spreadsheet. But consider that the
average individual may not use nor understand how to modify a spreadsheet
when needed, they fail to understand the tax laws as they pertain to the
partnership accounting and they don't have the time needed to rebuild a
wheel when it can be purchased for reasonable cost.

As a society, we're structured to have people skilled in specific tasks. We
have bakers, hairdressers, scientists, automotive mechanics... why? Because
the knowledge and time required to do perform the tasks become burdensome
for any one person to do. It's not beyond anyone's capability to learn how
to do the accounting, but one needs to evaluate the individual's opportunity
cost to acquire the skills to perform seldom used tasks. I might have to
give up home brewing to find the time to manage a home built accounting
system... and that would be a tragedy. ;-)

John

John



----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:17 AM
Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio


> John,
>
> I am sure that you are very qualified and intelligent, but I
> still want you to tell me how clubs managed before NAIC
> software and/or Bivio.
>
> Long before spreadsheets, people used paper and pen
> successfully to do accounting for investment clubs. In fact
> people have used spreadsheets longer than they have used
> software on computers. So how did people manage in that
> static, non-dynamic environment? You would have us believe
> that using a spreadsheet is a terrible evil, but they have
> been in use by investment clubs for decades (very
> succesfully), where software is a relatively new
> development.
>
> I think we need to agree that we will never see eye-to-eye
> on this subject, and put things to rest. If you feel
> comfortable spending money on Bivio's services, then that is
> certainly your prerogative.
>
> Take care and may your investments be successful,
>
> Chris
>
>
> John R. Munn wrote:
> > Chris...
> >
> > For many years I did bookkeeping by hand for a small S-corporation and
by
> > hand and with software for a non profit. For both, the taxes were done
by
> > hand. I have worked for H&R Block and have been a club treasurer for
one
> > club since 1998 and another on and off since 1997. I speak from
experience,
> > not from vested interest.
> >
> > I would not use a spreadsheet for accounting because the structure of a
> > spreadsheet is static... it's structure is fixed. But a club's data is
> > dynamic in that tax laws change and occasionally the rules change. Its
use
> > is not difficult for some people, but for many others it will be an
> > insurmountable challenge.
> >
> > I'm not trying to get people to use bivio any more than I would persuade
> > people to use IClubCentral's products. I have a choice. My preference
is a
> > computer based model through either of those two vendors, followed by
NAIC's
> > paper approach (they sell a kit for recording the transactions) and my
last
> > choice would be a home built spreadsheet.
> >
> > I have no axe to grind and no motives other than providing my opinion
formed
> > through years of experience with accounting, tax reporting,
spreadsheets,
> > databases, canned software such as Quicken and QuickBooks, and NAIC's
> > accounting products. I have no vested interest in bivio and I've been a
> > long time critic of NAIC's accounting product. My own clubs both
currently
> > use NAIC's Club Accounting v. 1.04 and one club is also using bivio. We
> > have not yet made a decision how to proceed to meet our accounting/tax
> > reporting needs. But as treasurer of two clubs, I can tell you that I
would
> > resign not just as treasurer, but from both partnerships if they were to
use
> > a system you describe.
> >
> > John Munn
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
> > To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:14 PM
> > Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio
> >
> >
> > > John -
> > >
> > > What I find most disturbing is your subtle assertion that an
> > > investment club cannot easily manage and maintain the
> > > accounts of an investment club. Let me assure you that long
> > > before Bivio ever existed, long before computers there were
> > > investment clubs that did everything by hand, that did taxes
> > > theirselves...and they flourished. Your statements are
> > > nothing more than misinformation, folly, and rhetoric aimed
> > > at scaring investors into using Bivio's service, when all
> > > they need is a spreadsheet.
> > >
> > > A spreadsheet is only as inaccurate as the formulas, once
> > > those are in place there can be no spreadsheet errors as you
> > > mentioned. Data integrity is not an issue, and I wonder why
> > > you even mention it. It makes me wonder if you aren't more
> > > for putting money in Bivio's accounts, than you are for the
> > > individual investor.
> > >
> > > Finally, you make calculating the cost basis of a stock and
> > > tracking a stock merger as complicated, issues. It is
> > > elementary math and I assume most people in an investment
> > > club can calculate their own personal Schedule-D capital
> > > gains reports. Filing taxes for an investment club is no
> > > more difficult.
> > >
> > > My particular concern is that you seem to trying to persuade
> > > people to use Bivio. You may like Bivio for its
> > > convenience, but the truth is that you are paying $59 for
> > > nothing more than convenience. Spending a little amount of
> > > time can save a club from spending that money, yet you
> > > cavalierly dismiss the notion that people can easily do what
> > > Bivio does on their own.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > John R. Munn wrote:
> > > > Chris...
> > > >
> > > > The following is not meant to denigrate your efforts, but accounting
is
> > more
> > > > than recording the cash transactions. Among many other features, it
> > > > includes correctly allocating income and losses on an individual and
> > time
> > > > dependent basis, determining the appropriate capital gain holding
> > periods
> > > > and allocating accordingly, tracking the merger/split/spin-off data,
> > > > determining the cost basis for each company and correctly
determining
> > and
> > > > reporting to the 1065/K-1 tax criteria. Of particular concern is
your
> > > > statement that filing the tax forms is simpler than most people want
you
> > to
> > > > believe... that depends on the method chosen to allocate income and
> > > > expenses. It can be very complex and tedious.
> > > >
> > > > Why would a club not want to "save" the expense of having
professionally
> > > > designed and maintained software?
> > > >
> > > > One reason is lawsuits from partners and the potential for erroneous
tax
> > > > filings due to spreadsheet errors. We're not professional
accountants,
> > we
> > > > are doctors, lawyers, scientists, tellers, auto mechanics, teachers,
> > deli
> > > > clerks and homemakers and lack the professional judgment to know
when we
> > > > make an accounting error.
> > > >
> > > > A second reason is that our time is valuable to us. I've done
1065/K-1s
> > by
> > > > hand and it's not fun. It takes time and care to get it right, and
I
> > have
> > > > better things to do with my Saturday afternoon than save $60 for the
> > club
> > > > than by filling out IRS forms by hand.
> > > >
> > > > A third reason is data integrity. In my years of using
spreadsheets,
> > I've
> > > > seen many errors propagated through improper use of spreadsheets.
Their
> > > > format does not adequately protect the integrity of the data. The
only
> > way
> > > > this data should be managed is through a database.
> > > >
> > > > A fourth reason is support. As you note, "...the spreadsheet won't
do
> > > > anything regarding the taxes..." So where do we go if we need help
> > doing
> > > > the taxes? Is your spreadsheet able to export into alternative
software
> > > > such as bivio or IClubCentral's desktop or on-line products? Where
> > would
> > > > someone go if they find the spreadsheet model is inadequate to meet
> > their
> > > > needs?
> > > >
> > > > I appreciate your efforts, but my club needs to have confidence in
the
> > > > accounting system, and without professional development to provide
> > assurance
> > > > that the spreadsheet model works, without support, without the tax
> > reporting
> > > > and without the data integrity, I would be doing my club a
disservice by
> > not
> > > > selecting bivio or NAIC's vendor.
> > > >
> > > > John Munn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Chris Washburn" <thewash@bivio.com>
> > > > To: <club_cafe@bivio.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:26 PM
> > > > Subject: club_cafe: Re: Free solution to Bivio
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Loretta --
> > > > >
> > > > > You have not understood what my spreadsheet is. You bring
> > > > > up some great points, and areas in which Bivio can help, but
> > > > > areas which I do not try and tackle.
> > > > >
> > > > > First of all there will never have to be updates to my
> > > > > spreadsheet because it will do all of the accounting, and
> > > > > the formulas won't change. Any modifications would simply
> > > > > be making the interface easier and easier to use. Because
> > > > > my spreadsheet is simply for accounting I never intended it
> > > > > to be able to calculate mergers, spin-offs, cash
> > > > > distributions, etc. It will account for them but they will
> > > > > have to be entered manually. This is not difficult however,
> > > > > because when a merger is completed you would simply have to
> > > > > look at your brokerage statement and see how many shares of
> > > > > the new stock you have and then enter this into the
> > > > > spreadsheet, while at the same time removing the former
> > > > > stock from the spreadsheet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Additionally, the spreadsheet won't do anything regarding
> > > > > the taxes, so there won't be any worries about updating the
> > > > > sheet around the tax laws. Doing taxes for an investment
> > > > > club is much more mundane and simple than most people want
> > > > > you to believe. Very few tax laws apply to clubs, and the
> > > > > most notable is the capital gain tax laws which are widely
> > > > > distributed, covered, and addressed.
> > > > >
> > > > > My intent is to simply provide a solution to clubs who want
> > > > > to do a modicum of manual input into a spreadsheet in order
> > > > > to save themselves the cost of Bivio's services. After all,
> > > > > many clubs have switched from Ameritrade to Buy & Hold to
> > > > > save themselves $4 or $5 per month, so why wouldn't they
> > > > > want to save $60 a year doing simple data entry into a
> > > > > spreadsheet?
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Loretta Lombard wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > > > Sounds like you are a resourceful guy with lots of free time
> > > > > > on your hands these days. Your idea is probably a lot like
> > > > > > the guys who founded bivio's original thinking. Creating an
> > > > > > alternative. I commend you for your effort, but I wonder how
> > > > > > far out you've thought about supporting your spreadsheet?
> > > > > > Bivio's had numerous calls on mergers, splits, stock and
> > > > > > cash splits, buy-outs, odd dividends.... you get the idea.
> > > > > > Bivio spends a good deal of their time keeping the product
> > > > > > current on tax changes and market changes. And getting the
> > > > > > year-end taxes printed is a breeze here. How will you handle
> > > > > > that?
> > > > > > I, as a club treasurer, would have reservations about
> > > > > > putting our books into something like this - what if you get
> > > > > > something else to do? will I have to move back to bivio or
> > > > > > somewhere else in the future? will I be able to import the
> > > > > > numbers or have to re-enter all my clubs data? Those are
> > > > > > some of the same questions clubs had of bivio when it
> > > > > > started up, and similar questions now that the fee is added.
> > > > > > Personally, and after seeing the "leaks" about pricing from
> > > > > > ICLUBcentral, I believe bivio's pricing, even without the
> > > > > > bivio bucks discount, is a great deal - both monetarily and
> > > > > > for the comfort factor of knowing someone is always watching
> > > > > > and updating the program as those changes in the laws occur.
> > > > > > Thanks anyway, and good luck.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Loretta
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris Washburn wrote:
> > > > > > > All --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've built the framework for a spreadsheet that will
> > > > > > > calculate your club's price and record transactions, and
> > > > > > > it's totally free.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Currently I've built a query to auto-update stock prices
> > > > > > > from the internet if a user is connected, or the prices can
> > > > > > > be manually entered.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Before 1/1/2002 I will have everything in easy-to-use forms,
> > > > > > > so that you can click a button and a small form will appear
> > > > > > > for you to enter buys, sells, dividends, payouts,
> > > > > > > contributions, new members, etc. This will all be in an
> > > > > > > embedded database within the spreadsheet. It will also
> > > > > > > record all of these events into various logs so that your
> > > > > > > taxes will be easy to assemble.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you're interested to saving yourself the annual fee that
> > > > > > > Bivio will be charging effective next year, e-mail me and
> > > > > > > I'll be glad to send you what I've done so far.
> > > > > > > Additionally, your suggestions can make this spreadsheet a
> > > > > > > simple and free solution to using Bivio.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Eventually we could even build free website at Yahoo! to
> > > > > > > take user feedback and comments, and build a free investment
> > > > > > > club community. As a group our investment clubs can
> > > > > > > collectively provide Bivio's services free of charge. As a
> > > > > > > former financial advisor I assure you that running/managing
> > > > > > > the books of an investment club are extremely simple, and my
> > > > > > > spreadsheet is the first step.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you'd like a copy of the spreadsheet send me an e-mail.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > tedmetro@yahoo.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chris Washburn
> > > > > > > treasurer/founder
> > > > > > > F-Tech Investment Club
> > > > >

Chris said:
My particular concern is that you seem to trying to persuade
people to use Bivio. You may like Bivio for its
convenience, but the truth is that you are paying $59 for
nothing more than convenience.
---
Chris, Do you own a cell phone? Why?
Convenience.
Do you pay more to use it than your home phone? Why?
Convenience.
Nuf said.

All in all, I think John was just making a valid point -
You, who are
numbers oriented obviously, find this task to be a breeze.
Others, who can't even balance their checkbook and go to H&R
Block to file a 1040EZ, would gladly pay for the convenience
of a product that brings the task to a level they find a
breeze too. Don't be offended, just remember to never look
down on another person's calling.
Best wishes.

Loretta Lombard
Playground Investment Club
Woodinville, WA

Loretta --

You took my point out of context. Don't get me wrong, I
love Bivio, but as I mentioned it's not necessary it's
simple convenience. I agree with you, if people want to pay
for convenience then I think that's great.

Many of John's statements however alluded that Bivio is
necessary to run an investment club. I was simply stating
that Bivio is by no means necessary for a club, it is merely
a matter of weighing the convenience versus the $59 per
year.

If you're going to respond to my posts, at least do everyone
a service and address my issues, don't take my words out of
context.

CW


Loretta Lombard wrote:
> Chris said:
> My particular concern is that you seem to trying to persuade
> people to use Bivio. You may like Bivio for its
> convenience, but the truth is that you are paying $59 for
> nothing more than convenience.
> ---
> Chris, Do you own a cell phone? Why?
> Convenience.
> Do you pay more to use it than your home phone? Why?
> Convenience.
> Nuf said.
>
> All in all, I think John was just making a valid point -
> You, who are
> numbers oriented obviously, find this task to be a breeze.
> Others, who can't even balance their checkbook and go to H&R
> Block to file a 1040EZ, would gladly pay for the convenience
> of a product that brings the task to a level they find a
> breeze too. Don't be offended, just remember to never look
> down on another person's calling.
> Best wishes.
>
> Loretta Lombard
> Playground Investment Club
> Woodinville, WA

Chris,
Sorry for just taking the few words in the reply, but I
wanted to keep it short (that thread was getting really
extended) and only address the one issue - convenience. No
ill intent at all. Sorry again.

I am also having trouble replying to this thread from home,
so I cut in my thoughts on the web site list and may have
jumped in at the wrong point on the thread. Again I
apologize.

I agree with you both. It may be necessary to use bivio for
some people, and it may be convenience for others. In any
case, it is good to have the option, and it is good of you
to offer your efforts to those that choose that route.

Thank you.
Loretta


Chris Washburn wrote:
> Loretta --
>
> You took my point out of context. Don't get me wrong, I
> love Bivio, but as I mentioned it's not necessary it's
> simple convenience. I agree with you, if people want to pay
> for convenience then I think that's great.
>
> Many of John's statements however alluded that Bivio is
> necessary to run an investment club. I was simply stating
> that Bivio is by no means necessary for a club, it is merely
> a matter of weighing the convenience versus the $59 per
> year.
>
> If you're going to respond to my posts, at least do everyone
> a service and address my issues, don't take my words out of
> context.
>
> CW
>
>
> Loretta Lombard wrote:
> > Chris said:
> > My particular concern is that you seem to trying to persuade
> > people to use Bivio. You may like Bivio for its
> > convenience, but the truth is that you are paying $59 for
> > nothing more than convenience.
> > ---
> > Chris, Do you own a cell phone? Why?
> > Convenience.
> > Do you pay more to use it than your home phone? Why?
> > Convenience.
> > Nuf said.
> >
> > All in all, I think John was just making a valid point -
> > You, who are
> > numbers oriented obviously, find this task to be a breeze.
> > Others, who can't even balance their checkbook and go to H&R
> > Block to file a 1040EZ, would gladly pay for the convenience
> > of a product that brings the task to a level they find a
> > breeze too. Don't be offended, just remember to never look
> > down on another person's calling.
> > Best wishes.
> >
> > Loretta Lombard
> > Playground Investment Club
> > Woodinville, WA