A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?
Lynn Ostrem on
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?
ira smilovitz on
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?
Marty Eckerle on
Naming the club account in the name of an established revocable trust seems to be a method that avoids probate. We have amended our PA to allow trust membership with a restriction that the only trust member whose SSN is on file with the club has authority in any club matters. I would appreciated Lynn's or Ira's comment on our situation.
Thanks,
Marty Eckerle
From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of ira smilovitz Sent: Monday, January 9, 2017 10:11 AM To: club_cafe@bivio.com Subject: Re: [club_cafe] Payouts upon death of member
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other estate planning?
Jeanne Tieken on
We ask each member to state a beneficiary, and then write the check to the beneficiary. Often it is a trust. Is this satisfactory?.
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?
Lynn Ostrem on
I can't address the legalities of beneficiaries or trusts, Marty. Ira can help with that. I get concerned when people don't look at a club as a business entity. The boiler plate NAIC general partnership agreement was well written and, when followed, has kept the horror stories to a minimum. But probate court and the state and fed's intent on capturing every flippin' red cent they can upon our death is really serious business. I'm glad Gary came here first to ask.
I will be curious to see what Ira says about beneficiaries. It seems to me that by paying a beneficiary, the club takes on the responsibility of the death tax. Most of us are not equipped or educated to handle that kind of responsibility. We need to stay out of the middle.
For 2 decades, I've preached that clubs are an education vehicle, not a retirement savings account. It's meant to be a place to learn how to invest for your future. But when member accounts grow to the point where people feed the need to "protect" them, I think it's time to take a distribution. Just my 2 cents!
Take care,
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?
I can't address the legalities of beneficiaries or trusts, Marty. Ira can help with that. I get concerned when people don't look at a club as a business entity. The boiler plate NAIC general partnership agreement was well written and, when followed, has kept the horror stories to a minimum. But probate court and the state and fed's intent on capturing every flippin' red cent they can upon our death is really serious business. I'm glad Gary came here first to ask.
I will be curious to see what Ira says about beneficiaries. It seems to me that by paying a beneficiary, the club takes on the responsibility of the death tax. Most of us are not equipped or educated to handle that kind of responsibility. We need to stay out of the middle.
For 2 decades, I've preached that clubs are an education vehicle, not a retirement savings account. It's meant to be a place to learn how to invest for your future. But when member accounts grow to the point where people feed the need to "protect" them, I think it's time to take a distribution. Just my 2 cents!
Take care,
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?
ira smilovitz on
Jeanne,
NO!!! Clubs should NEVER issue a withdrawal to a beneficiary. The club can't know that the beneficiary designation is legally binding (generally it is NOT) unless the designation document has been thoroughly reviewed by a local attorney well versed in that state's estate and inheritance laws. If you make the payout to the "wrong" beneficiary, each of your club's members is potentially liable individually to make the correct beneficiary "whole".
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?
rice.j1969 on
Just post a question to club_cafe@bivio.com with a different subject line. Ask one or two questions at a time.
John
On Monday, January 9, 2017 8:56 AM, GRTClub <grtrend@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't address the legalities of beneficiaries or trusts, Marty. Ira can help with that. I get concerned when people don't look at a club as a business entity. The boiler plate NAIC general partnership agreement was well written and, when followed, has kept the horror stories to a minimum. But probate court and the state and fed's intent on capturing every flippin' red cent they can upon our death is really serious business. I'm glad Gary came here first to ask.
I will be curious to see what Ira says about beneficiaries. It seems to me that by paying a beneficiary, the club takes on the responsibility of the death tax. Most of us are not equipped or educated to handle that kind of responsibility. We need to stay out of the middle.
For 2 decades, I've preached that clubs are an education vehicle, not a retirement savings account. It's meant to be a place to learn how to invest for your future. But when member accounts grow to the point where people feed the need to "protect" them, I think it's time to take a distribution. Just my 2 cents!
Take care,
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?
ira smilovitz on
Marty,
Whether placing the partnership interest within a revocable trust works to avoid probate is a matter of state law. Any individual or club considering revocable trusts for their own assets or as potential "members" should consult with a local attorney before doing anything.
Naming the club account in the name of an established revocable trust seems to be a method that avoids probate. We have amended our PA to allow trust membership with a restriction that the only trust member whose SSN is on file with the club has authority in any club matters. I would appreciated Lynn's or Ira's comment on our situation.
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other estate planning?
Marty Eckerle on
Lynn,
Glad you are back. Thanks for your reply and Ira has responded.
Marty Eckerle
From: club_cafe@bivio.com [mailto:club_cafe@bivio.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Ostrem Sent: Monday, January 9, 2017 11:04 AM To: The Club Cafe <club_cafe@bivio.com> Subject: Re: [club_cafe] Payouts upon death of member
I can't address the legalities of beneficiaries or trusts, Marty. Ira can help with that. I get concerned when people don't look at a club as a business entity. The boiler plate NAIC general partnership agreement was well written and, when followed, has kept the horror stories to a minimum. But probate court and the state and fed's intent on capturing every flippin' red cent they can upon our death is really serious business. I'm glad Gary came here first to ask.
I will be curious to see what Ira says about beneficiaries. It seems to me that by paying a beneficiary, the club takes on the responsibility of the death tax. Most of us are not equipped or educated to handle that kind of responsibility. We need to stay out of the middle.
For 2 decades, I've preached that clubs are an education vehicle, not a retirement savings account. It's meant to be a place to learn how to invest for your future. But when member accounts grow to the point where people feed the need to "protect" them, I think it's time to take a distribution. Just my 2 cents!
Take care,
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other estate planning?
Edgar D. Berners on
I am the treasurer of a club. Our broker is TD Ameritrade.
When a member dies we pay his account as nearly as possible
with shares of stock and a small remainder paid in cash. A
check made out to "Estate of" will not handle this
situation.
A member's club account was listed as "[Member name] Living
Trust dated etc." That member told me in a letter the name
and address of the person who would become the successor
trustee in the event of the member's death. When the member
died, I asked the successor trustee to open an Ameritrade
account in the name of the trust, which he did. I filled
out an Ameritrade internal transfer form with instructions
for which shares of stock and how much cash to transfer from
my club account to the trust account. I signed the form and
mailed it to the successor trustee who signed it and sent it
to Ameritrade. The transfer happened after a short delay.
If anyone in this thread or just reading knows of problems
with the procedure above, or would like to approve it, I
would like to hear about it.
Ed Berners
St. Joseph Valley Investors Club
Irina Clements on
Due to the myriad issues of having the survivors establish an account for stock transfer:
1) one more thing to do in an emotional and task filled time
2) the delays possible during above, especially by titling broker account in the estate of..., by survivor who has many things to do
In the two deaths my club has had, we cut check.
In every OTHER withdrawal scenario, we pay stocks and cash.
Be Well. Irina Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 12, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Edgar D. Berners <eberners76@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> I am the treasurer of a club. Our broker is TD Ameritrade.
> When a member dies we pay his account as nearly as possible
> with shares of stock and a small remainder paid in cash. A
> check made out to "Estate of" will not handle this
> situation.
>
> A member's club account was listed as "[Member name] Living
> Trust dated etc." That member told me in a letter the name
> and address of the person who would become the successor
> trustee in the event of the member's death. When the member
> died, I asked the successor trustee to open an Ameritrade
> account in the name of the trust, which he did. I filled
> out an Ameritrade internal transfer form with instructions
> for which shares of stock and how much cash to transfer from
> my club account to the trust account. I signed the form and
> mailed it to the successor trustee who signed it and sent it
> to Ameritrade. The transfer happened after a short delay.
>
> If anyone in this thread or just reading knows of problems
> with the procedure above, or would like to approve it, I
> would like to hear about it.
>
> Ed Berners
> St. Joseph Valley Investors Club
Laurie Frederiksen on
Hi,
Irina makes a very good point. There are many moving parts to getting a stock transfer to pay a withdrawal correct.
Adding issues with trying to deal with an estate to get it done complicates it even more. This comment is from experience working with clubs who have tried to do this.
If you are doing any sort of withdrawal for any reason, please feel free to run what you are going to do by us in support before you do it. It is very difficult to correct incorrect withdrawal payouts after the fact. We'd much prefer to help you avoid any issues before they happen.
Laurie Frederiksen Invest with your friends! www.bivio.com
I can't address the legalities of beneficiaries or trusts, Marty. Ira can help with that. I get concerned when people don't look at a club as a business entity. The boiler plate NAIC general partnership agreement was well written and, when followed, has kept the horror stories to a minimum. But probate court and the state and fed's intent on capturing every flippin' red cent they can upon our death is really serious business. I'm glad Gary came here first to ask.
I will be curious to see what Ira says about beneficiaries. It seems to me that by paying a beneficiary, the club takes on the responsibility of the death tax. Most of us are not equipped or educated to handle that kind of responsibility. We need to stay out of the middle.
For 2 decades, I've preached that clubs are an education vehicle, not a retirement savings account. It's meant to be a place to learn how to invest for your future. But when member accounts grow to the point where people feed the need to "protect" them, I think it's time to take a distribution. Just my 2 cents!
Take care,
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
I agree with Lynn. Even if you choose to ignore the criminal aspects of what you are planning, you are exposing each of your members to significant financial risk. You (the club, not you individually) don't know that the surviving wife is the (sole) heir to the decedent's assets. If you give the payout to the wrong individual, the actual heir can sue the club (not the recipient of the money) to recover the asset. As a general partnership, any member of the club can be held individually liable for the entire amount. That's a risk I wouldn't want to assume.
Gary, you just posted to a public message board your desire/intent to find a way to perpetuate a federal crime. Really? You need to cut a check to the deceased member and send it to his last known address. I know you want to help this lady, but you put every other member at risk if the courts find out. And don't think the IRS doesn't check! You filed K-1s, right? The issue is not between you and the widow. It was a decision they made. Be smart and protect your club.
Lynn M. Ostrem Resource Management Group, Inc. 171 Rickard Road
A member recently passed away, and we are going to payout
his wife with cash, as requested. She asked if the check
had to be made out to his estate, as this would then be the
only asset that would have to be probated. I assume it
would be, or has someone else had this issue? Also, what
have clubs done to have payouts avoid being probated. Do
they list memberships as "joint" with spouses, or do other
estate planning?